Lure and climbing

[doubleW]

If you want to lure a model which is standing behind a wall... does it climb over it to get as close as possible to the model using the lure or does climbing up count as moving further away and it keeps just staying behind the wall?

[Alcathous]

1 minute ago, doubleW said:

If you want to lure a model which is standing behind a wall... does it climb over it to get as close as possible to the model using the lure or does climbing up count as moving further away and it keeps just staying behind the wall?

Climbing is a function of the walk action, so any other type of movement must go around.

[Jinn]

On 5/6/2021 at 8:41 AM, Alcathous said:

Climbing is a function of the walk action, so any other type of movement must go around.

Actually it's not, it's a function of the Climbable trait. It applies to all moves, walk and otherwise.

[doubleW]

I feel so stupid  😅

Thx alot 

[Alcathous]

35 minutes ago, doubleW said:

I feel so stupid  😅

Don't! There's a lot of rules to keep track of in this game. Everyone misses one at some point.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

Actually it's not, it's a function of the Climbable trait. It applies to all moves, walk and otherwise.

Oh, true, just went and read climbable in the app and it says you can move up and down it.

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Jinn said:

Actually it's not, it's a function of the Climbable trait. It applies to all moves, walk and otherwise.

It's also only allowed during walk actions ( moving page 50 printed book). This is the only time that a model can move whilst it's based is not supported. Any other time and it falls. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

It's also only allowed during walk actions ( moving page 50 printed book). This is the only time that a model can move whilst it's based is not supported. Any other time and it falls. 

Well, it doesn't explicitly say that is the only way to go up climbable terrain, and the definition of climbable terrain says:

Quote

Models may not move through Climbable Terrain, but they may move across its top (often a roof) and may move vertically up and down along its sides. Other than its top, all other portions of Climbable terrain are treated asImpassable. If a model ignores this terrain trait, it may still move vertically up and down along thesides of this terrain

So without an explicit ruling elsewhere, I'd lean towards listening to the climbing rules (aka, you can move vertically up and down along its sides).

[Adran]

38 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, it doesn't explicitly say that is the only way to go up climbable terrain, and the definition of climbable terrain says:

So without an explicit ruling elsewhere, I'd lean towards listening to the climbing rules (aka, you can move vertically up and down along its sides).

It does say that you fall down if you aren't supported, and that when you are resolving a walk action along climbable terrain you can ignore that for the duration of the action. ( on phone so can't quote). So following that section of the rules climbing only has an effect during a walk action. 

My default is if 2 sections talk about something and there is a way that only works if you ignore1 section then it's probably wrong, and if there is a way that works with both its probably right. I wish they put the walk restrictions in the climbing rules as it would be found then, but the movement rules aren't overridden by the climbing rules. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, Adran said:

It does say that you fall down if you aren't supported, and that when you are resolving a walk action along climbable terrain you can ignore that for the duration of the action. ( on phone so can't quote). So following that section of the rules climbing only has an effect during a walk action. 

My default is if 2 sections talk about something and there is a way that only works if you ignore1 section then it's probably wrong, and if there is a way that works with both its probably right. I wish they put the walk restrictions in the climbing rules as it would be found then, but the movement rules aren't overridden by the climbing rules. 

My feeling is it is better to consider the section specifically about the climbable trait, rather than a section that is only mentioning in relation to a hundred other issues at the same time.

If the rules were really intended that you can only walk up climbable terrain, why would they put something that says you can move up and down climbable terrain? They could have easily just put the word 'walk' there.

So in my view you sort of have to ignore the climbable terrain section (which says that you CAN move up and down terrain) to interpret that only walk works.

Another point is that the movement section basically says "you fall down if you're not support by the table or terrain." I would argue that if you're using climbable terrain, you're supported during the move (since climbable terrain explicitly allows you to move up and down it), but you stop being supported by climbable terrain the moment you stop moving (because climbable terrain doesn't allow you to be supported once the move is complete).

So I think the 'any movement (of the 'model moves' variety) works' is actually consistent with both sections of the rules, and MORE consistent with the climbable terrain section (which in my view is the more relevant section).

[Jinn]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

It's also only allowed during walk actions ( moving page 50 printed book). This is the only time that a model can move whilst it's based is not supported. Any other time and it falls. 

That statement (page 14 digital) only describes what happens during a walk action involving Climbable terrain, it does not exclude other moves from functioning according to the terrain trait.

I would agree with your interpretation if that was the only place Climbable was mentioned or if it explicitly said a model is only affected by Climbable terrain during walk actions, but the Climbable trait is literally defined elsewhere in the rules with far more text.

"Climbable: Models may not move through Climbable Terrain, but they may move across its top (often a roof) and may move vertically up and down along its sides. Other than its top, all other portions of Climbable terrain are treated as Impassable. If a model ignores this terrain trait, it may still move vertically up and down along the sides of this terrain."

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

My feeling is it is better to consider the section specifically about the climbable trait, rather than a section that is only mentioning in relation to a hundred other issues at the same time.

If the rules were really intended that you can only walk up climbable terrain, why would they put something that says you can move up and down climbable terrain? They could have easily just put the word 'walk' there.

So in my view you sort of have to ignore the climbable terrain section (which says that you CAN move up and down terrain) to interpret that only walk works.

Another point is that the movement section basically says "you fall down if you're not support by the table or terrain." I would argue that if you're using climbable terrain, you're supported during the move (since climbable terrain explicitly allows you to move up and down it), but you stop being supported by climbable terrain the moment you stop moving (because climbable terrain doesn't allow you to be supported once the move is complete).

So I think the 'any movement (of the 'model moves' variety) works' is actually consistent with both sections of the rules, and MORE consistent with the climbable terrain section (which in my view is the more relevant section).

I would say that sounds like you're reading what you think something should do, not what is actually written.

The rules in question (electronic page 37 and then page 14, and page 22)

"Climbable: Models may not move through Climbable Terrain, but they may move across its top (often a roof) and may move vertically up and down along its sides. Other than its top, all other  portions of Climbable terrain are treated as Impassable. If a model ignores this terrain trait, it may still move vertically up and down along the sides of this terrain. "

"If a model is ever without any of its base supported by terrain or the table, that model falls and suffers falling damage equal to half  the distance it fell in inches (rounded down). It then continues any  remaining portion of its movement as normal.
When resolving a Walk Action (see pg. 22), a model may move vertically along Climbable Terrain. To do so, it uses any amount of its movement distance to move vertically instead of horizontally. If a model moves in this way, it does not fall during this movement so long as it remains in base contact with the terrain. 
If the model’s base is not supported by terrain or the table at the end of this movement, it falls as normal."

Walk
This model moves up to its Movement (Mv) in inches. This move cannot be used to leave an enemy model’s engagement range.

Since the climbable says you may move along the terrain its probably a good idea to find what the movement rules say, and this is the section on Moving along verticle terrain. ( There aren't any other rules this edition about it, but last edition it specified that you moved at half rate whilst climbing). It calls out that you can do this during a walk action specifically, not just whilst moving. It also does mention the need for the climbable trait, so its not like you can say it ignores that section of the rules. And it says that this is when you ignore the falling requirements. 

To my reading, the climbing trait only works in conjunction with the walk action to allow you to break the rules on falling. Choosing to ignore the falling rules at any other time is going against what is written. 

The walk action moves you, so using move in the climbable rules is still correct. It doesn't use the verb walk, so putting that in the climable rules wouldn't have made sense in rules terms, even if it was cleaner in english terms. (the two aren't the same, you just have to look at how often questions about take an action and declare an action are assumed to be the same thing, even though in the rules they are 2 different things)

You can clearly be supported by terrain without need of the climbing rule. Nothing in the climbing rule says that it supports the model, so you are subject to the if you aren't supported you fall rule.

[Fingalen]

I am definitely on the side, that you can climb only during the walk action. What would be the reason to explicitly mention it only in the walk action section, if it is allowed  during any movement? As Adran says, the climbing trait rules specify how you can climb (up, down etc.) and movement rules specify when you can do it (during a walk action).

[diki]

Slightly boring mathematical observation: in strictly measuring distance between two points* on two models bases - the climbing part of the movement would actually be increasing the distance from the point on the model on the opposite side of a wall!

I think it's sad that the rules don't allow a model to lure a model to climb over a wall to come and play though - it's horrifically counter intuitive!

*hmmm, is it model or base??? Could you choose a point on the models head!

and can you rotate models bases whilst moving them to hack the distance requirements a bit

[solkan]

17 minutes ago, diki said:

I think it's sad that the rules don't allow a model to lure a model to climb over a wall to come and play though - it's horrifically counter intuitive!

On the bright side, you can use Lure to get a model out of engagement because it's not a Walk.  So there's that.

[Maniacal_cackle]

24 minutes ago, diki said:

Slightly boring mathematical observation: in strictly measuring distance between two points* on two models bases - the climbing part of the movement would actually be increasing the distance from the point on the model on the opposite side of a wall!

I think it's sad that the rules don't allow a model to lure a model to climb over a wall to come and play though - it's horrifically counter intuitive!

*hmmm, is it model or base??? Could you choose a point on the models head!

and can you rotate models bases whilst moving them to hack the distance requirements a bit

This is true, so the case of lure is pretty clear-cut, you can't use it to climb (and from memory you always have to measure base-to-base, specifically a particular point on each base for towards/away).

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I would say that sounds like you're reading what you think something should do, not what is actually written.

The rules in question (electronic page 37 and then page 14, and page 22)

"Climbable: Models may not move through Climbable Terrain, but they may move across its top (often a roof) and may move vertically up and down along its sides. Other than its top, all other  portions of Climbable terrain are treated as Impassable. If a model ignores this terrain trait, it may still move vertically up and down along the sides of this terrain. "

"If a model is ever without any of its base supported by terrain or the table, that model falls and suffers falling damage equal to half  the distance it fell in inches (rounded down). It then continues any  remaining portion of its movement as normal.
When resolving a Walk Action (see pg. 22), a model may move vertically along Climbable Terrain. To do so, it uses any amount of its movement distance to move vertically instead of horizontally. If a model moves in this way, it does not fall during this movement so long as it remains in base contact with the terrain. 
If the model’s base is not supported by terrain or the table at the end of this movement, it falls as normal."

Walk
This model moves up to its Movement (Mv) in inches. This move cannot be used to leave an enemy model’s engagement range.

Since the climbable says you may move along the terrain its probably a good idea to find what the movement rules say, and this is the section on Moving along verticle terrain. ( There aren't any other rules this edition about it, but last edition it specified that you moved at half rate whilst climbing). It calls out that you can do this during a walk action specifically, not just whilst moving. It also does mention the need for the climbable trait, so its not like you can say it ignores that section of the rules. And it says that this is when you ignore the falling requirements. 

To my reading, the climbing trait only works in conjunction with the walk action to allow you to break the rules on falling. Choosing to ignore the falling rules at any other time is going against what is written. 

The walk action moves you, so using move in the climbable rules is still correct. It doesn't use the verb walk, so putting that in the climable rules wouldn't have made sense in rules terms, even if it was cleaner in english terms. (the two aren't the same, you just have to look at how often questions about take an action and declare an action are assumed to be the same thing, even though in the rules they are 2 different things)

You can clearly be supported by terrain without need of the climbing rule. Nothing in the climbing rule says that it supports the model, so you are subject to the if you aren't supported you fall rule.

Worth noting that the rules say a few things:

• You may move up and down climbable terrain.
• You may do this with the walk action.
  • It doesn't say you may ONLY do this with the walk action.
• Your base has to be supported (although it doesn't define what counts as supported).

But I suppose we won't get an FAQ for a while, so we'll just have to make do with whatever interpretations. I know the vassal world series has ruled it this way, so it's the way I'll be playing (that only walk can climb).

58 minutes ago, malyzubor said:

I am definitely on the side, that you can climb only during the walk action. What would be the reason to explicitly mention it only in the walk action section, if it is allowed  during any movement? As Adran says, the climbing trait rules specify how you can climb (up, down etc.) and movement rules specify when you can do it (during a walk action).

My impression of the rules is that they were all written at different times (since there have been many drafts of the rules and they're updated at various points), so redundant and otherwise confusing text does arise.

[Fingalen]

10 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I know the vassal world series has ruled it this way, so it's the way I'll be playing (that only walk can climb).

You mean the VWS rules you are able to climb during any move? Where could these rulings be found, please?

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

That statement (page 14 digital) only describes what happens during a walk action involving Climbable terrain, it does not exclude other moves from functioning according to the terrain trait.

 

It does not prohibit other moves, but it is currently the only way in the rules that allows you to ignore the falling rules.

The movement section is obviously written with the intent that climbable terrain trait alone does not allow you to avoid falling, because if it alone was enough they could have removed that whole paragraph telling you about how in a certain situation when using the climbable trait you can ignore the falling rules. 

As written the rules allow the possibility to get a model with a rule like 

This model may move vertically on climbable terrain. If it moves in this way, it does not fall during this movement so long as it remains in base contact with the terrain. 

And still work. 

 

There certainly is times when there is redundant text, and there certainly is times when there is confusing text, but when I have 1 section of the rules telling me the rules work 1 way, and a second section that can be read as agreeing with the first section, or can be read as contradicting the first section, then I default to agreeing

 

[Adran]

21 minutes ago, malyzubor said:

You mean the VWS rules you are able to climb during any move? Where could these rulings be found, please?

I don't think that's what he said, he actually said they rule it the other way, (In agreement with me and you) but I have just been into the FAQ they have, and can't see it mentioned. I go to the vassel section of the forum and most of the VWS events have a link to their FAQ on the first post (And several organisers have links in their sigs to it as well)  

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, they may not have put it in the FAQ, but there's also a rules channel to the discord server, and if you ask that question there you get the answer (that it is walk only).

Alcathous early in the thread is one of the TOs, so his responses will tend to be the same as the VWS.

[Jinn]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I would say that sounds like you're reading what you think something should do, not what is actually written.

The rules in question (electronic page 37 and then page 14, and page 22)

"Climbable: Models may not move through Climbable Terrain, but they may move across its top (often a roof) and may move vertically up and down along its sides. Other than its top, all other  portions of Climbable terrain are treated as Impassable. If a model ignores this terrain trait, it may still move vertically up and down along the sides of this terrain. "

"If a model is ever without any of its base supported by terrain or the table, that model falls and suffers falling damage equal to half  the distance it fell in inches (rounded down). It then continues any  remaining portion of its movement as normal.
When resolving a Walk Action (see pg. 22), a model may move vertically along Climbable Terrain. To do so, it uses any amount of its movement distance to move vertically instead of horizontally. If a model moves in this way, it does not fall during this movement so long as it remains in base contact with the terrain. 
If the model’s base is not supported by terrain or the table at the end of this movement, it falls as normal."

Walk
This model moves up to its Movement (Mv) in inches. This move cannot be used to leave an enemy model’s engagement range.

Since the climbable says you may move along the terrain its probably a good idea to find what the movement rules say, and this is the section on Moving along verticle terrain. ( There aren't any other rules this edition about it, but last edition it specified that you moved at half rate whilst climbing). It calls out that you can do this during a walk action specifically, not just whilst moving. It also does mention the need for the climbable trait, so its not like you can say it ignores that section of the rules. And it says that this is when you ignore the falling requirements. 

To my reading, the climbing trait only works in conjunction with the walk action to allow you to break the rules on falling. Choosing to ignore the falling rules at any other time is going against what is written. 

The walk action moves you, so using move in the climbable rules is still correct. It doesn't use the verb walk, so putting that in the climable rules wouldn't have made sense in rules terms, even if it was cleaner in english terms. (the two aren't the same, you just have to look at how often questions about take an action and declare an action are assumed to be the same thing, even though in the rules they are 2 different things)

You can clearly be supported by terrain without need of the climbing rule. Nothing in the climbing rule says that it supports the model, so you are subject to the if you aren't supported you fall rule.

I believe that the Climbable trait's wording is enough to count as Terrain supporting a model (as it says a model may move up or down it).

You may well be right in your interpretation, but either way an FAQ or a tiny errata to the Climbable trait would be very helpful. I doubt anyone who has this question in a game will look further than the Climbable trait in the moment, as it only references general moves in its text. In my opinion the rules here are ambiguous enough to warrant a once-over at least, and the text about Walk actions seems vestigial.

As it is, I'm still pretty sure that the text of Climbable alone is sufficient to allow models to move vertically using a normal move as long as nothing explicitly contradicts it elsewhere in the rules. I'm really not "reading what you think something should do, not what is actually written.", I just don't think that a single statement about what Walk actions may do is enough to exclude other moves from what I understand the text of Climbable to say. Just to be clear, I don't think that text about the Walk action on pg 14 is necessary for the Climbable rule to function, and if it wasn't in the rulebook I wouldn't have thought twice about letting models move vertically on Climbable terrain despite the general falling rules.

2 hours ago, diki said:

Slightly boring mathematical observation: in strictly measuring distance between two points* on two models bases - the climbing part of the movement would actually be increasing the distance from the point on the model on the opposite side of a wall!

I think it's sad that the rules don't allow a model to lure a model to climb over a wall to come and play though - it's horrifically counter intuitive!

*hmmm, is it model or base??? Could you choose a point on the models head!

and can you rotate models bases whilst moving them to hack the distance requirements a bit

You can do it if you're on a higher piece of terrain than the target (assuming you don't restrict it to walk actions obviously).

[Adran]

the most recent FAQ says (Section 3 Terrain)

10. *What does “ignoring vertical distance” mean?*

a) If a model ignores vertical distance than it ignores Falling damage and while taking the Walk Action it can move vertically along Climbable Terrain without using any amount of its movement distance. This does not however allow a model to Push over terrain, as it would still need to break its movement into shorter distances.

 

So here again there is the strong implication that its the walk action in conjunction with climbable terrain that allows you to move vertically. 

[Jinn]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

the most recent FAQ says (Section 3 Terrain)

10. *What does “ignoring vertical distance” mean?*

a) If a model ignores vertical distance than it ignores Falling damage and while taking the Walk Action it can move vertically along Climbable Terrain without using any amount of its movement distance. This does not however allow a model to Push over terrain, as it would still need to break its movement into shorter distances.

 

So here again there is the strong implication that its the walk action in conjunction with climbable terrain that allows you to move vertically. 

While I agree that does support your interpretation in some ways, I thought the point of that clarification was to clearly state that you don't lose your movement distance when walking onto terrain.

In support of my interpretation however, it says that pushes don't allow you to go over terrain with that rule because it would require you to split the push into shorter distances, not because it isn't a Walk action. Again there is definitely enough ambiguity that an FAQ feels warranted.

Additionally, does it not feel clunky that you would need both a section in the Movement rules to limit it to Walks and a terrain trait that allows vertical movment to define how Climbable terrain works? Surely just the trait should be enough for simplicity's sake, even assuming your interpretation is correct.

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, Jinn said:

While I agree that does support your interpretation in some ways, I thought the point of that clarification was to clearly state that you don't lose your movement distance when walking onto terrain.

In support of my interpretation however, it says that pushes don't allow you to go over terrain with that rule because it would require you to split the push into shorter distances, not because it isn't a Walk action. Again there is definitely enough ambiguity that an FAQ feels warranted.

Additionally, does it not feel clunky that you would need both a section in the Movement rules to limit it to Walks and a terrain trait that allows vertical movment to define how Climbable terrain works? Surely just the trait should be enough for simplicity's sake, even assuming your interpretation is correct.

whilst I agree if the movement section didn't have that bit about ignoring falling during a walk action, I would assume that any movement could climb. But it does, and its actually in the movement section where you should look for movement rules. I don't find it clunky, in that the terrain traits all relate to the rules. I don't want models to be able to climb everything, so it needs to be a terrain trait to specify what can be climbed.  Bocking terrain still needs you to read the line of sight rules and the shadow rules. Concealing terrain still needs you to look at the concealment rules. I said earlier I wish they had spelt it out in the climbable rules as well, but then I also pointed out a reason the might not have.

on the FAQ answer, Pushes don't work because you can't change direction. that just clarifies that even if you are treating the ht difference as 0 its still a change of direction, so it doesn't really support you at all. (in effect its saying that you can't push onto obstacles even if you are ignoring their vertical distance thanks to climbing gear).

if the rules are as you say, then that FAQ answer should not just refer to walks, because climbing gear applies to all movement. Whilst this FAQ isn't trying to answer the question we are debating, because of the way they wrote the answer I think it shows the intention is that you can only use the climbable trait whilst walking.

 

[Alcathous]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

on the FAQ answer, Pushes don't work because you can't change direction. that just clarifies that even if you are treating the ht difference as 0 its still a change of direction, so it doesn't really support you at all. (in effect its saying that you can't push onto obstacles even if you are ignoring their vertical distance thanks to climbing gear).

Isn't it more to due with the fact that the Push rules explicitly state the pushed models stop when the hit Impassable (and therefore also Climbable) terrain?

[santaclaws01]

Regarding the section about climbable terrain in the movement section, it's been known about since before the rulebook went to print on initial release, and the rulebook has been errata'd twice now. If their intent was for any form of movement to work with climbable that section would almost certainly have been changed by now. Especially considering they closed the incorporeal-climbable loophole where I'm pretty sure I was the only person who ever actually pointed out that they didn't technically work together initially.