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English Ivan, who do you hire?


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Just finished painting them and played my first 2 games over the weekend with a few proxies (spectors...finnigan)

 

I was told that he is one of the strongest masters in ES but I lost both games miserably. Granted it was my first outing with the real minis, but I just keep getting this feeling that Ivan is Dreamer (pre-nerf) lite. Like, summoning with an attack is cool, but the end result is pretty much the same: you are throwing a summoned monster to their face - in Dreamer, you summon, than attack someone with reality twist to throw the summoned on to their face. Ivan, you just have 1 less step to do so, but need to manage more carefully about your attacks so.....

 

then my oppoents suggested that my lists are wrong.....that DUA models are't that strong...???? except Ivan....

 

so I am wondering,

 

WHO DO YOU HIRE? 

 

can someone please teach me how to play Ivan correctly and share lists?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

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I agree Ivan is overhyped, but he is still incredibly powerful IMO.

Things I typically see in strong lists when facing him:

  • Gibson (for the distracted + antiluminal bridge + healing).
  • Archivist

So perhaps use that as your core. My understanding is that most of the rest of DUA/Umbra are not worth hiring except in specific situations (like Eva can be great for scheme running with blocking terrain on the board).

Also don't forget you don't HAVE to play as a summoner. You can also just be a min-3 beater at range and smash your opponents that way. The flexibility is really useful. There are some things he struggles horribly with, though - what do you usually face?

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...but I just keep getting this feeling that Ivan is Dreamer (pre-nerf) lite...

But pre-nerf Dreamer is one of the strongest crews in M3E so it's kinda complement :) Sorry for the offtop

 

About the main message in topic - i totaly share your feeling. I had 7 games with Ivan and won only 3 yet. But i see my own mistakes, so i see that it's not about Master or Keyword, but about playstile. Biggest mistakes in every game - underestimate treat range and/or damage potential of enemy crew. To be simple - i lost key models pretty early in those games. Ivan was placed outside 2" from Shadow markers and/or Emisarry e.tc. 

As for hires i always take this core:

  • Gibson DeWalt - for extra Shadow markers, extra Distracted and Tools for the Job
  • Archivist - for Ill Omens, for min 3 10" attack and for 4" Leap
  • Winston Finnigan - for Arcane Reservoir, Fortune's Favor card cycle and awesome Bonus action

I took Eva few times but hadn't success with her. I took her for placing Schemes far away and it worked, but just feels not right... Every Activation was something like this - Secret Passage+Secret Passage or Concentrate+Secret Passage or Secret Passage+Interact. Again, it worked sometimes, but i just want more...

I took Corvis Rook and always had some fun with him. He always was a pressure source for opponent and he attract some attention an AP's. So it's kinda "tank" if you would ask me.

Hes slot sometimes is taken by Intrepid Emissary because he's super good in protection - Protected and Shielded aura are awesome. 6" push is a nice bonus for the first turn.

I tryed Tannenbaum but hadn't succes with him. He was struggling because of lot of Concealment around. But he's Inked Fingers and card cycle are nice. Austera and Twigge looks nice on paper, but hadn't did much in my games.

I feel some potential in both Ngaatoro, but still didnt figured it out how to properly use them. I also believe in Operatives, they were super good for me in Syndicate, but not in DUA/Umbra yet (i hope).

Some situational picks for specific Schemes:

  • Botanist have nice synegy with Shadow markers
  • Vernon & Welles is good for protections against WP based attacks and also pretty mobile

 

But again - i lost 4 and only won 3. So i'm not the person whoes advice should be taken seriously :) Would be nice to hear some other options.

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20 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree Ivan is overhyped, but he is still incredibly powerful IMO.

Things I typically see in strong lists when facing him:

  • Gibson (for the distracted + antiluminal bridge + healing).
  • Archivist

So perhaps use that as your core. My understanding is that most of the rest of DUA/Umbra are not worth hiring except in specific situations (like Eva can be great for scheme running with blocking terrain on the board).

Also don't forget you don't HAVE to play as a summoner. You can also just be a min-3 beater at range and smash your opponents that way. The flexibility is really useful. There are some things he struggles horribly with, though - what do you usually face?

 

My first two "real" games were against Shen Long and Tara. For the first game I had both Gibson and Archivist....well, Archivist didn't live up to his reputation, so I switched to Finnigan. And I had a few more games in Vassal, but still didn't do too hot. 

 

 To be fair, the issue with Tara crew wasn't void creaturesm but that freaking strongarm suit and his gravity well. It.......was very frustrating to the point I wanted to punch him in the face...XD I was able to summon only 1 daeva...... 

 

5 hours ago, Sagrit said:

...but I just keep getting this feeling that Ivan is Dreamer (pre-nerf) lite...

But pre-nerf Dreamer is one of the strongest crews in M3E so it's kinda complement :) Sorry for the offtop

 

About the main message in topic - i totaly share your feeling. I had 7 games with Ivan and won only 3 yet. But i see my own mistakes, so i see that it's not about Master or Keyword, but about playstile. Biggest mistakes in every game - underestimate treat range and/or damage potential of enemy crew. To be simple - i lost key models pretty early in those games. Ivan was placed outside 2" from Shadow markers and/or Emisarry e.tc. 

As for hires i always take this core:

  • Gibson DeWalt - for extra Shadow markers, extra Distracted and Tools for the Job
  • Archivist - for Ill Omens, for min 3 10" attack and for 4" Leap
  • Winston Finnigan - for Arcane Reservoir, Fortune's Favor card cycle and awesome Bonus action

I took Eva few times but hadn't success with her. I took her for placing Schemes far away and it worked, but just feels not right... Every Activation was something like this - Secret Passage+Secret Passage or Concentrate+Secret Passage or Secret Passage+Interact. Again, it worked sometimes, but i just want more...

I took Corvis Rook and always had some fun with him. He always was a pressure source for opponent and he attract some attention an AP's. So it's kinda "tank" if you would ask me.

Hes slot sometimes is taken by Intrepid Emissary because he's super good in protection - Protected and Shielded aura are awesome. 6" push is a nice bonus for the first turn.

I tryed Tannenbaum but hadn't succes with him. He was struggling because of lot of Concealment around. But he's Inked Fingers and card cycle are nice. Austera and Twigge looks nice on paper, but hadn't did much in my games.

I feel some potential in both Ngaatoro, but still didnt figured it out how to properly use them. I also believe in Operatives, they were super good for me in Syndicate, but not in DUA/Umbra yet (i hope).

Some situational picks for specific Schemes:

  • Botanist have nice synegy with Shadow markers
  • Vernon & Welles is good for protections against WP based attacks and also pretty mobile

 

But again - i lost 4 and only won 3. So i'm not the person whoes advice should be taken seriously :) Would be nice to hear some other options.

 

I mean...DREAMER OP.........my initially thought was, if you want this kind of play style, why not just play the Dreamer....than he got nerfed to the ground while no ES masters got hit so....we will see how it goes 😛

 

MY EVA DID EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS! I think the most exciting thing she has done for me was Secret Passage + get a Symbol --> Secret Passage + Get a Symbol for 2 VPs and... got killed horribly. I mean, getting 2 VP by herself is no small feat, but compare to a huckseter, I just wish she has more.....

 

Corvis, He looked really good on paper....but for some reason, I felt he was too squishy. I had to burn too many stones to just keep him alive. He put decent pressures on opp.'s hand, but again...I still wish he has more too....

 

I have not tried the Emissary. Heard he is good. I will try to use him instead of Corvis. 

 

I actually did tried Austera on Vassal. I really liked her "mulligan"; Mulligan - move - hawk eye all day. I think I will try her a few more times, but she was certainly a nice addition to the crew. (but I still lost.....) 

 

I mean, Ivan himself is strong and cool...but I feel like DUA models are generally underpowered. Eva is a nice scheme runner, but she just runs.....Corvis is .......well I feel like he is just another scheme runner with more punch.....but not enough punching power...and operatives.....well their "i am pretending to be you" gimic is nice...but they just got one-shoted so....

 

 

And Abour Archvist...a lot of people suggest him in DUA...and his draw-attack is nice but I just feel like i am wasting stones. about 1/3 or half of his tools are useless in DUA crew. Yes 3/4/5 with draw is strong, and maybe itself is good enough to make the cut...but I just can't shake off this feeling that I am wasting valueble stones.... I used him only twice, but both times, he drew me maybe like 3 cards and kill a model or so. Not the level of result I expected from his reputation. 

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2 hours ago, Sanik said:

 

My first two "real" games were against Shen Long and Tara. For the first game I had both Gibson and Archivist....well, Archivist didn't live up to his reputation, so I switched to Finnigan. And I had a few more games in Vassal, but still didn't do too hot. 

 

 To be fair, the issue with Tara crew wasn't void creaturesm but that freaking strongarm suit and his gravity well. It.......was very frustrating to the point I wanted to punch him in the face...XD I was able to summon only 1 daeva...... 

 

 

I mean...DREAMER OP.........my initially thought was, if you want this kind of play style, why not just play the Dreamer....than he got nerfed to the ground while no ES masters got hit so....we will see how it goes 😛

 

MY EVA DID EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS! I think the most exciting thing she has done for me was Secret Passage + get a Symbol --> Secret Passage + Get a Symbol for 2 VPs and... got killed horribly. I mean, getting 2 VP by herself is no small feat, but compare to a huckseter, I just wish she has more.....

 

Corvis, He looked really good on paper....but for some reason, I felt he was too squishy. I had to burn too many stones to just keep him alive. He put decent pressures on opp.'s hand, but again...I still wish he has more too....

 

I have not tried the Emissary. Heard he is good. I will try to use him instead of Corvis. 

 

I actually did tried Austera on Vassal. I really liked her "mulligan"; Mulligan - move - hawk eye all day. I think I will try her a few more times, but she was certainly a nice addition to the crew. (but I still lost.....) 

 

I mean, Ivan himself is strong and cool...but I feel like DUA models are generally underpowered. Eva is a nice scheme runner, but she just runs.....Corvis is .......well I feel like he is just another scheme runner with more punch.....but not enough punching power...and operatives.....well their "i am pretending to be you" gimic is nice...but they just got one-shoted so....

 

 

And Abour Archvist...a lot of people suggest him in DUA...and his draw-attack is nice but I just feel like i am wasting stones. about 1/3 or half of his tools are useless in DUA crew. Yes 3/4/5 with draw is strong, and maybe itself is good enough to make the cut...but I just can't shake off this feeling that I am wasting valueble stones.... I used him only twice, but both times, he drew me maybe like 3 cards and kill a model or so. Not the level of result I expected from his reputation. 

Yeah, when people build to counter Ivan he struggles. Against that gravity well I think you have to pivot into just being a min-3 beater. But also it is hard to keep a mobile crew like Tara's in the Gravity Well. Keep an eye out for summoning opportunities (and of course a model like Nothing Beast can't easily be protected by the aura).

For Archivist, you really need to get value out of the +2 initiative to be able to get full value out of the model IMO. Although also with its leap it can swap to scheme running pretty easily.

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My first suggestion is that the problem isn't the lists. Its that you aren't playing as well as your opponent. 

That may also include hiring issues, but a good player can do well with a bad list, so its certainly not just a question of what you are hiring.

The most important thing about Malifaux is VPs.  Have a plan on how you intend to score them. Then have a plan on how you intend to deny them to your opponent. Hire your list to be able to for fill these plans, ideally with cover for critical parts (and as you understand your opponents keyword/faction plans for dealing with their likely counters). 

Then when you play the game, focus on your plans. Don't get distracted by needless fights or "cool" things. 

This applies to all crews. 

When you activate Ivan you need to decide if summoning a brocken by an unimportant enemy model is more or less important than summoning a nocturne by a critical model. From what you say of your experience with Eva, you are putting her at risk for 1 point, which can work, as long as you weren't intending on her scoring more. If you wanted her to also score schemes then perhaps using her to get that second symbol point and letting her die was a mistake. Move her somewhere safe, or hold her back until later in the turn where she is more likely to survive before she gets to activate again, and she can then run away next turn for example. (If you have activated her early then try and get her near a marker so she can lock it away. Your opponent can't attack her if they are within 2 of that marker)

Gravity well is something you will see a lot when facing Ivan, because it does make his life harder. If you are facing Outcasts or Resurrectionists you need to have a plan B to summoning.  Sometimes that will be to have a plan with no summoning, sometimes its plan on removing the influence of Gravity well (either by death of the model, or using your crew to stop it from affecting the person you want to target), and sometimes its by picking on targets outside its aura to get the summons out.  

I can't easily give you good advice on how to play Ivan because you haven't really said where you struggle. I don't believe in 1 list to do it all, I think you should build a list to play the game in front of you. And you should know what each piece in the list is hired for. Copying someone else's list without understanding (at least partially) why they made the choices they made is not going to work all that well, no matter how good the list is in their hands.

Ivan and Gibson are the only 2 members that can drop Shadow markers without it being a trigger in combat. This can be useful to set up your attacks, hinder your opponents attacks or just give Ivan places to step to. 

Corvus is a hard model to tie up. If you aren't in base contact with him, he can interact. He can get any trigger he wants, he has good stats and requires effort to attack. He isn't a tank, but he is a tool box. Activate him early, and you have Backroom dealings to let you know your opponents hand. Activate him late, and have forced your opponent to hold onto cards to deal with the possible 2 executes he can do, even if you don't do those attacks, they have been unable to use those cards to fuel discard effects, or cheat easy TN duels in all the earlier actions.  Normally crews are going to want to rely on :meleeactions vs Ivan because they aren't affected by concelament, but they are hard to use well against Corvus. 

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