Triggers that kill vs demise that replaces

[Barmution]

Hi,

just came across an interaction that I'm not sure how to resolve: If a model with the Excorcism trigger ("Target must have a Summon Upgrade attached. The target is killed.") declares it vs a model with a Demise that replaces it what are the results? AFAIK the relevant examples are a summoned Mounted Guard or a GG2 reformed Ashes and Dust.

Is the model being killed considered a game state that carries over to the replaced model or is the killing of the original model considered resolved at the point in time where the replacement model comes into play? 

 

[santaclaws01]

Healing only helps against damage killing a model

[Nathan Sells]

My understanding would be that, as Exorcism does not ignore Demise abilities, they still apply. By contrast, the Execute trigger states "The target may either discard a card or a Soulstone. If it does neither, it is killed, ignoring Demise abilities."

[Adran]

None of the demise replacement effects stop a model being killed by them selves. They all rely on healing to stop death and that only works if they were on 0 wounds. 

 

Edit- see later when I actually read the rules

[Maniacal_cackle]

I believe the model heals up and then dies on some number of wounds.

Killing a model states that healing cannot stop it, from memory, although you'd have to double check the killing section of the rules.

[solkan]

You quoted the wrong paragraph.  The next one is the one that says you can’t heal out of being killed directly (“is killed”):

Quote

If a model was Healed after being killed by a game effect (as opposed to being reduced to 0 Health), then being Healed does not prevent it
from being killed.

 

[solkan]

On the other hand, here’s what happens:

• The original model is killed, it sits there with its current (non-zero health) and goes through its Demise ability.
• You work though replace, setting the new model’s Health to the old model’s non-zero Health, and heals whatever is specified in the Demise effect.
• In step 5, you remove the original model, resolving no further effects on it.
• In step 6, the model lives because it isn’t at 0 Health.
   

So you end up with a live model at the end if the Demise ability isn’t ignored.

Disclaimer:  I’m not entirely sure I’m reading the most errata’d version of the main rules.

 

[Barmution]

11 hours ago, solkan said:

On the other hand, here’s what happens:

• The original model is killed, it sits there with its current (non-zero health) and goes through its Demise ability.
• You work though replace, setting the new model’s Health to the old model’s non-zero Health, and heals whatever is specified in the Demise effect.
• In step 5, you remove the original model, resolving no further effects on it.
• In step 6, the model lives because it isn’t at 0 Health.
   

So you end up with a live model at the end if the Demise ability isn’t ignored.

Disclaimer:  I’m not entirely sure I’m reading the most errata’d version of the main rules.

 

Thank you for summarizing the process. This was my initial take too but it seems sort of off so I wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one seeing this interpretation.

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 hours ago, solkan said:

On the other hand, here’s what happens:

• The original model is killed, it sits there with its current (non-zero health) and goes through its Demise ability.
• You work though replace, setting the new model’s Health to the old model’s non-zero Health, and heals whatever is specified in the Demise effect.
• In step 5, you remove the original model, resolving no further effects on it.
• In step 6, the model lives because it isn’t at 0 Health.
   

So you end up with a live model at the end if the Demise ability isn’t ignored.

Disclaimer:  I’m not entirely sure I’m reading the most errata’d version of the main rules.

 

But you transfer over all game effects (including the 'kill' effect) to replaced models, don't you? So the new model is still killed even if it has the health?

[Adran]

Replace seems the most errata'd section of the rules.

So I'm not 100% certain how it works anymore.

I'm fairly certain that originally killed was intended to be a game effect that transferred, but that was during the public beta, and I can't remember if that was intended by the final rules (or if we even knew, as I remember Execute got changed to ignore demise effects to partially reduce this sort of confusion, even though in general it didn't actually save anything, but I might just be thinking of Demise Eternal and its like). 

Here is the latest errata

 

Pg 32. Replace The Rules and Steps for replacing models were adjusted to the following:

1. Place each new model into base contact with any of the original models. If any cannot be Placed or cannot be added due to model limits, the Replace effect is cancelled.

2. Each new model’s Health is set to the total Health of all original model’s combined or to the new model’s maximum Health, whichever is lower. If the Replace effect Heals any new models, those new models Heal at this point.

3. If any original model(s) had any Conditions or Tokens, one new model gains those Conditions at the same value (if any) and all Tokens. These Conditions, if gained during the End Phase, do not resolve their effects. Any Summon Upgrades Attached to any original model is Attached to that new model (if able); all other Upgrades are discarded.

4.If the new and original models belong to the same Crew, one new model becomes the target of any effects that targeted or chose any original models, such as Schemes, Leader designation, or lasting game effects. That new model is always considered a legal target for those effects.

5. Remove all original models from the game. If the new and original models do not belong to the same Crew, all original models are considered to be killed, ignoring Demise Abilities. No game effects (such as placing Markers or scoring points) occur from the original model being removed.

6.If any new model is at 0 Health, it is killed.

7.If any original model(s) had Activated, all new models are treated as having Activated; otherwise, new models are considered not to have Activated. If this Replace occurred during an original model’s Activation, one new model instead continues that Activation using any remaining Actions.

 

The fact that there is Step 6 suggests to me that killed might not be a lasting game effect that is transferred. (And all the demise :replace effects are "when this model would be killed do this instead"). 

I change my mind and think Killed isn't a game state that transfers across, so exorcising a summoned mounted guard still just kills the horse...

[Mycellanious]

I think step 6 is just there for anti-heal auras, or if it would live on 1 and suffer Hazardous, or if the Coryphee Duet would Dance Apart at 1 Wound.

[Adran]

Just now, Mycellanious said:

I think step 6 is just there for anti-heal auras, or if it would live on 1 and suffer Hazardous, or if the Coryphee Duet would Dance Apart at 1 Wound.

That wouldn't matter if the killed effect carried over, things would still die without step 6 in an anti heal aura.

Placing a model in hazardous terrain during a replace wouldn't trigger the hazardous damage until after step 6 anyway.

And a duet can't dance apart at 1 wound, because it can't pay a cost that would kill it.