Outcast titles speculation and wishlists

[touchdown]

Well *every* master getting an alternate title is a huge announcement. What do you expect or want to see?

[Spratford]

Single leader Vik with Student as her Totem. 

[touchdown]

Before the last errata, I would have guessed a more summon oriented Leve, but now he's already that. Maybe they'll bring back some of his old hiring pool? Let him lead the horsemen again? Let him summon waifs back?

Viks: I could see a version that lets them go toe-to-toe with other beater models. Something like Combat Finesse and ability to ignore at least some defenses. I could also see a more support oriented version. Letting friendly models take rapid fire or flurry without discarding or something like the old melee expert. They have such a defined role as a skirmisher/flanker right now I have trouble seeing how they would do that but different.

Parker: I would like to see a less support more offensive Parker, or maybe a control Parker. Bring back hail of bullets!

[Thatguy]

12 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Maybe they'll bring back some of his old hiring pool? Let him lead the horsemen again? Let him summon waifs back?

That would be really cool. I think he'd have to be kind of bad, to make up for being able to take a bunch of powerful models.
It might also mean bringing back his horseman avatar form, which would be pretty cool.

Ideas:

Viks- Return of the Avatar of Slaughter, both viks on 1 50mm base. Might be hard to make the Viks more killy, so maybe more of a tar pit? Like, they get shielded for every model they damage, and their shielded doesn't clear at the end of the round.
Parker-"Great Train Robber", something like Rail walking but with scheme markers.
VonSchill- Maybe a melee beater version? Or bring back his old Hard to Kill aura.
Jack Daw- I can't think of anything. I'm trying to think of something that works with his current crew mechanics, but isn't what he already does.
Captain Zipp- Maybe more of a support master. A lot of the crew has Free Loot, so an ability to drop enemy scheme markers would be cool. Maybe something that plays off everyone having Show Boating. Like giving out distracted when something Showboats or giving the Showboating model shielded.
Tara- She has reactivate now. I think it would be cool to see her get an ability that does the opposite. Like she can choose to give up a whole Master level activation for some powerful effect. Like all burried enemy models take 3 damage or something.
Hamlin- Something that speeds up play somehow. Like Rats no longer activate, instead they're treated as hazardous terrain, and when he activates he can push them all. Maybe something like his old Pied Piper ability that let him push models in any direction, like a trigger on his Lure. He could use it to push people through Rats for damage.

[Zebo]

Von Schill breaking his shirt again, please. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Jack Saw - some sort of 12 health interpretation of the card xD

Hamelin - blight tokens now spread at the start of each turn. Any model within 3 of a model with blight gains another ?

[Azahul]

For Hamelin I could see him turn into a Master-esque version of Asura Roten. Make Rats significant in their activations to enable a more scheme-driven approach perhaps? Given that current Hamelin already does basically everything else well (he tanks, he hits really hard, he sets up other models to hit really hard, he has AOE damage, he moves enemy models around) it's a little hard to imagine where else they could go.

 

That or he could lean more into the mind control aspect in the lore. A lot of Hamelin stories I've read involve his attacks featuring near as many enthralled slaves as they do rats. Giving him Obey, or an equivalent that only works on Blighted Enemies similar to new Youko, and/or an attack that turns enemies into Stolen if it kills them (I wonder if Totems will stay the same across Titles? They weren't mentioned and releasing so many Masters is already a big deal so it's possible) feel like obvious choices.

[Zebo]

Maybe something like the old "blight trap markers" (Can't remember the real name) that they gave him in the las M2E book? 

[Azahul]

Plague pits, I think from memory. Yeah, there are a few directions they could go in. The Obey option feels like it would be reflecting the lore in a way Hamelin's mechanics haven't really approached previously, which would be neat.

 

Maybe he'll get the ability to summon Winged Plagues so we'll actually have to put them on the table?

[Trample]

It would be fun to see Von Schill as a different type of commander, maybe similar to Dashel where he has the ability to summon in Freikorps minions and have some form of obey to make those minions take an action. 

For the Viks I too would like to see them be able to go toe to toe a bit more. Perhaps finesse to help them avoid some melee damage and different sword triggers, at least one of which is armor piercing. 

I'd like to see Tara have some kind of ranged void spell attack. Targeted - not a blast. Perhaps more debuffing than damaging. She would be a midfield ranged debuffer to set up the enemy for her crew. No reactivate. 

I don't know how you tackle Hamelin to speed up his playstyle, but I would love to see it. 

[Azahul]

Do people actually have trouble running Hamelin time-wise? I probably play him an unhealthy amount so it could be a practice thing for me, but he's never struck me as overly difficult to run on a time limit.

[Burnin4tor]

8 hours ago, Azahul said:

Do people actually have trouble running Hamelin time-wise? I probably play him an unhealthy amount so it could be a practice thing for me, but he's never struck me as overly difficult to run on a time limit.

I think, like anything, you put in the practice with a master and you manage time just fine.

I haven’t yet played Hamelin (but very excited to, he’s in my to-build pile) but I can imagine without lots of practice he’s tricky trying to keep track of and think over all the rats and things moving more than once etc

edit: also lol, “unhealthy amount”

[Jordon]

On 4/28/2021 at 12:33 PM, Thatguy said:

That would be really cool. I think he'd have to be kind of bad, to make up for being able to take a bunch of powerful models.
It might also mean bringing back his horseman avatar form, which would be pretty cool.

Honestly you could have his card say "replace this model with a malifaux rat" and I'd still take it.

The Horsemen list was my primary list in M2E. It was never super competitive but was easily the coolest list on the table. I'm really hoping it makes a return in the next book.

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Burnin4tor said:

edit: also lol, “unhealthy amount”

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week

 

The rats being mindless combined with usually wanting to combine them into Rat Kings and opponents wanting to kill them to prevent that make him usually fairly fast to play in my experience. You're rarely spending time on rat activations, and when you do there isn't a lot of decision making to get hung up on. If you're steamrolling an opponent things can get a little busy I suppose... 

[Thatguy]

10 hours ago, Azahul said:

Do people actually have trouble running Hamelin time-wise? I probably play him an unhealthy amount so it could be a practice thing for me, but he's never struck me as overly difficult to run on a time limit.

I personally haven't played him since 1st when he roflstomped my Gremlins. I have heard that people playing with or against him often have to call tournament games early due to time. But now that I've passed it on its third hand so *shrug*

[Azahul]

I'd heard the same thing on the grapevine, but never really from anyone speaking firsthand. Made me quite nervous about playing him in the Vassal League, especially since I was new to Vassal, but I was able to solo him throughout without difficulty, which surprised me after all the warnings. Must be a practice thing I guess.

[Zebo]

Yes, Hamelin is quite slow to play until you're very skilled with him. 

First, in the Rat generation engine, you must be careful where you put the scheme markers to 

1 - be at least 4" Apart of each other. 

2 - be in 4 from a place you are going to be with Benny (and not forget the LoS from that point). 

3 - be in a place where they place rats in Hamelin's range and LoS. 

4 - be in a place where they can move and do the things you want they to do. 

 

Then, in Hamelin's turn you use Unclean Influence and must be careful with 

1 - each rat is moved in the right order and the right place, they don't disrupt the others rats's movements and actions. 

2 - new scheme markers (if WP are in range) are dropped in the right place, having in consideration the previous 1 to 4 steps. AND WP neither blocks /disrupts other vermin movements. 

3 - rat king are generated (if generated) in the right place. 

 

The Hamelin takes 3 actions. 

 

Sure it will be faster with practice, or if played in other ways, but still many much things to have in your head. 

[Azahul]

Beyond not using Winged Plagues, yeah, I go through all of that each game. Maybe I'm used to playing games with a much larger model count than Malifaux but generally speaking the rat generation engine gets set up at deployment and you don't need to agonise over the placement much after that, and moving a bunch of models in formation and not having them trip over each other is fairly standard wargame fair from my perspective and rarely takes much time. Hamelin's own activations really only blow out time wise in my experience if those Unclean Influences start generating attack actions from the rats and rat kings.

 

I have probably played more Hamelin games than all my other games combined mind you, so I might be being a bit glib about it. But I've seen comparable Masters time wise. Pandora players will force the opponent to make a bunch of duels with her bonus action (taking time to resolve) and need to make sure they know the opposing crew well enough to maximise their control of the other player's activations for example. As a player who is better at placement than math, I can take longer to resolve being on the receiving end of the Box Opens than I do to deal with Unclean Influence on eight rats 

[Da Git]

The Plague-pits returning for Hamelin could be cool...

Ghost Levi? After he can't actually return.

[admiralvorkraft]

1 hour ago, Da Git said:

The Plague-pits returning for Hamelin could be cool...

I'd put money on something like plague pits Hamlin. I'd like to see Blight have more interactions than just converting to damage. 

[touchdown]

5 hours ago, Da Git said:

Ghost Levi? After he can't actually return.

Ooh, this would be interesting. Incorporeal and still has death touch. Maybe he has to stay wth in X in of a friendly waif or he instantly dies, like they're tethering his soul

[admiralvorkraft]

32 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Ooh, this would be interesting. Incorporeal and still has death touch. Maybe he has to stay wth in X in of a friendly waif or he instantly dies, like they're tethering his soul

Maybe the waifs plant phylactery tokens on terrain and he can exist within aura 3" of any terrain with a phylactery token. Trading the mobile assassin for a slow but unstoppable force...

[Greatfrito]

I suspect the titles aren't going to be as dramatic of departures as maybe some of us are hoping/theorizing.  As far as I'm aware, they're only changes to the master itself, right?  So it has to be something where (a) the new version of the master can work alongside the models already available, and (b) the existing models have to still work with the new version of the master.

I don't know what they'll do with Von Schill, for example - it feels like he still needs to pass out his upgrades, but I'm not sure how they'll shift that around.  Could be neat if they just tweaked him a little so that his attacks were more about making use of his troops.  Friekorps-only obeys or something.  Or just more ways to let them have free attacks.

A simple change to Zipp would be to shift his attacks and Piano-marker-dropping actions around a bit.  Give him a Piano-Cannon attack - a once-per-activation attack that deals damage and drops a piano marker on (or y'know, in base contact with) the target.  Maybe a 176 Keys of DEATH trigger to add an extra blast to the damage and drop a second piano marker.  Dread Pirate Zipp?
 

A very simple one I would love to see is the Viks getting their damn sword back.  Could be interesting if it was done on an upgrade card, and they could pass it back and forth like McCabe's crew do with items - but again, I'm not even sure if titles will ever include cards other than just a new Master card.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Sonnia and Kirai both seem to fundamentally alter everything about how the crew works, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of then are remakes of how the crew works.

[Azahul]

It also appears that Totems aren't changing (based on the reference to Ikiryo and no indication that the summoned Ikiryo would have its own title on the Kirai card), so there's still Trunkie handing out upgrades for Schill.