Models that are better OOK?

[whitters]

Are there any models that you rarely pick in keyword but are actually quite useful even with the tax elsewhere?

My top pick is probably Rail Workers. Pneumatic Toss followed by a charge and another Pneumatic Toss is actually a fantastic way to move an expensive beater down the board. It is a useful ability in a number of situations. They are tough and hit quite hard too. But in keyword with Ride the Rails they always feel redundant.

Next would be Lotus Eaters for me. In keyword they are a Tech Pick for marker removal. OOK a potentially stat 7 threaten feels more useful and I feel aggressive stance is a really good bonus action that has more synergy elsewhere.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

I actually quite like Rail Workers in keyword. I like to situationally double Pneumatic Toss the Metal Golem on turn 1 and Pneumatic Toss enemies in the Vent Steam aura or other hazardous terrain for extra damage. 

[Cats Laughing]

On 4/28/2021 at 2:31 AM, TheUnseemlyOne said:

I actually quite like Rail Workers in keyword. I like to situationally double Pneumatic Toss the Metal Golem on turn 1 and Pneumatic Toss enemies in the Vent Steam aura or other hazardous terrain for extra damage. 

Agree, Rail Workers are quite good in keyword.  Especially since Ride the Rails is a 'walk' action and not a charge, so I'd rather move my beater up through external methods than use an action on Ride the Rails.  The Arcanist side of me is a little sad they are Ten Thunders models (the Ten Thunders side of me laughs at the Arcanist side of me for this).

 

Charm Warders can be useful OOK in many cases (opponents with important summons or demise or incorporeal), though I'm not sure if that makes them 'better OOK'

[TheUnseemlyOne]

Yeah, I thought about Charm Warders for this, but I take them at least as often in keyword, if not more. 

[whitters]

On 4/28/2021 at 8:31 AM, TheUnseemlyOne said:

I actually quite like Rail Workers in keyword. I like to situationally double Pneumatic Toss the Metal Golem on turn 1 and Pneumatic Toss enemies in the Vent Steam aura or other hazardous terrain for extra damage. 

Interesting. I mostly take them in Foundry if I have a model like Fuhatsu that i want to move around without using their activation and to get around terrain depending on the setup.

Do you ever take Rail Workers in a different key word?

[TheUnseemlyOne]

1 hour ago, whitters said:

Do you ever take Rail Workers in a different key word?

Sometimes, but not often.  When I do, it’s definitely for the Pneumatic Toss.  I’ll sometimes take one into pools where it looks like an enemy model needs to be in a specific place, just to make it more difficult. They can also move any slower models of mine up the board in the meantime. 

[Vessien]

I am really struggling to find something that is more useful OOK than in keyword honestly.

Because every time that I think of anything I realize it is also worth it in ketword (or even more due to the synergies).

I guess it would have to be something redundant or with poor synergies. Or maybe summoned models? I don't really know Oni, so cannot say for sure.

[dannydb]

kabuki warriors are good with wp actions, so yanlo and lynch might get some use of them

[Cats Laughing]

38 minutes ago, Vessien said:

I am really struggling to find something that is more useful OOK than in keyword honestly.

Because every time that I think of anything I realize it is also worth it in ketword (or even more due to the synergies).

I guess it would have to be something redundant or with poor synergies. Or maybe summoned models? I don't really know Oni, so cannot say for sure.

Feels like most Oni models would be pretty bad out of keyword.  With only Asami and her totem having ways to remove Flicker, you lose out on one of their biggest mechanics (and often a few model specific rules too). Additionally they become super vulnerable to anyone with an obey (who outside of an Asami crew can put flicker on enemy Oni). That said I do have a possible nominee from the Oni keyword:

 

The Kamaitachi.  It's generally considered not good, so isn't often considered in keyword. It doesn't actually gain much of anything out of keyword (except cost), but if you're facing Somer, Hamelin, or another Keyword that's expected to summon multiple times per turn (both Somer & Hamelin will summon outside of the master's activation) the card draw might be worth the hire.

That said, the Kamatachi does exactly the same thing in keyword so maybe this still doesn't meet the criteria of good OOK and not good in keyword...

[TheUnseemlyOne]

21 minutes ago, dannydb said:

kabuki warriors are good with wp actions, so yanlo and lynch might get some use of them

That’s true, but I think Youko still gets just as much out of them, if not more.  We may see them in Qi and Gong now that she’s been updated 

[Vessien]

15 hours ago, Cats Laughing said:

That said, the Kamatachi does exactly the same thing in keyword so maybe this still doesn't meet the criteria of good OOK and not good in keyword...

I think we have a candidate for winner here ^^

[Jinn]

For an example from another faction, Silent Ones in Arcanists are significantly better OOK than in keyword. I think that is mainly because their keyword is very bad and they bring ranged healing to strong models in other crews.

Low River Monks would be the equivalent in TT, but Shenlong isn't exactly a weak Master like Raspy so they're as good if not better in keyword.

So are there any models in (speaking competitively here) lackluster crews that see actual play in higher tier lists?

Getting a bit off topic, but I see our relatively weak Masters as being Mei Feng, Lynch, and that's it now that Youko's better. These crews may be impacted by the distracted changes in ways I haven't predicted, but the way I see it these two crews were struggling a lot before the errata and then Mei got nerfed hard with the Sparks change and Lynch's Mr. Tannen lost the Stealth upgrade that made him sometimes live to have a second activation.

I think if the Trained Ninja upgrade hadn't changed then Tannen would be an auto take into Qi & Gong crews, and would likely be better there than in Honeypot, but as it currently stands I'm not seeing anything that is better OOK than in keyword.

Actually if Yan Lo is now somehow bad (I don't think he was hit hard enough for that) then Chiaki might be better in Qi & Gong than in keyword. Another Serene Countenance + better lure + card draw + Manipulative on Youko if she dies + cleanse + Hole in the World is pretty good.

[Cats Laughing]

Are silent ones actually better OOK, or are they just in a better crew (when taken OOK) where they matter? They don't gain any rules out of keyword and lose access to additional ice pillars other keyword models might put out.

Like they aren't bad in keyword, the whole keyword is, which imho is different from being bad in keyword and better out of keyword.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the premise.

I'd think bad in keyword and better OOK means there's some anti-synergy in keyword that gets removed when they leave keyword. Looking at Raspy's crew Acolytes could be a candidate as they're often discounted due to the cover enemy models get from Raspy's own Ice Pillars and therefore might be better OOK. But maybe OOK they are still not good, so...