Ressers in GG2!

[Paddywhack]

28 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Re: Necropunks.

One thing that is important to remember is you need all of like 2 leaps in a game before they are performing solidly. 5 is bonkers, but 2 leaps is probably enough that they're a problem.

So I wouldn't write them off too soon.

Sure - but you need them at the right time. If you don't get it when you really need it and that is why you took them, then blah... ymmv

Others swear by them and this probably won't change their mind, but they are going to be much more swingy now than before. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Sure - but you need them at the right time. If you don't get it when you really need it and that is why you took them, then blah... ymmv

Others swear by them and this probably won't change their mind, but they are going to be much more swingy now than before. 

In my experience with the Archie nerf, if it is important you can generally save a card for it (or dig for it).

The only time you really NEED to leap with a punk is if it is engaged. Otherwise the leap can usually wait a turn, I imagine. And if the punk is engaged by something that can kill it, then it is tying up a valuable model for a mere 5 stones.

Granted, with Archie I definitely feel the cost of warping my gameplay to get those masks to leap him, so it may not be worth it for Necropunks, but definitely seems worth testing (as salty as I was yesterday since I hate unsuited leap).

And of course, sometimes you just rip the leap off the top of the deck and cackle.

[Thatguy]

Maybe now that it's harder to leap it will be easier to bait people into attacking your Necropunks. 

I known I've been dumb enough to waste AP on a beater trying to chase/kill one. Now with leap being harder they can play "bird with a broken wing" then leap to safety. Take that sucker. 

[Korrok]

I feel with all the card draw transmortis has that getting a low mask for a leap shouldent be horribly difficult to do. Nor will replenishing your hand after cheating it. This change hurts Levi way more however. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Korrok said:

I feel with all the card draw transmortis has that getting a low mask for a leap shouldent be horribly difficult to do. Nor will replenishing your hand after cheating it. This change hurts Levi way more however. 

Yeah, my experience with Molly is that you usually can get the mask when you need it, it's just a question of whether it is warping your crew to do it and how much you want it.

Like are you willing to cheat an 11 of masks for the leap? Depends on how important it is to you.

[Maniacal_cackle]

With the distraction buff, I wonder if McMourning has been stealth buffed.

You just spam projectile vomits on flesh constructs + use Manos (or similar) to hand out staggered, and away you go.

Possibly best done with a summoning engine.

[unti]

I just realized that the new drag along trigger on lampads is any marker not just pyre markers. That should enable some funny plays...

[Math Mathonwy]

12 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

I do think they took Von Schtook down a bit too far with the other changes added in. But I don't think it will drastically change 'how' you play him, it will just be a little harder/less effective. Losing the Push and Focus is annoying especially since they also nerfed Focus in general and it's a Once per Turn action anyway. I really don't like the scheme marker requirement to give out Fast. I think the Minion Only change would have been enough to stop the abuse people were complaining about (Fast Vale).

It is kinda funny that they nerfed all he does. I mean, at least IME, VS wasn't amazingly powerful after the first turn's Focus Pulse and Upgrade + Fast thingy. The rest of the game he actually felt like one of the weakest Masters in a way but of course that first turn was great and his keyword was amazing. Now his power play is giving a Minion Fast at the expense of a Scheme Marker which really kinda pales in comparison to any other Master in the game, basically  

I dunno, it sort of feels to me like the nerfs to VS should've been options to be considered but someone accidentally applied them all to him. Coupled with the Undergrad and Necropunk nerfs he really took an enormous blow. It's kinda funny seeing how some of the Dreamer players are completely gutted over the nerf on him and then comparing that to what VS got  

And all of that is not to say that I disagree with all of the nerfs. Necropunk and Undergraduate nerfs were likely needed. Undergraduates were one of the very few Minions that didn't feel at all bad taking all three (and Malifaux cannot have that! ) and By Your Side was most likely the correct nerf to them. Similarly, I do like that the Vale missile is gone - it was very imbalancing and not fun at all. But all of the rest of the VS nerfs seem a bit much on top of those ones.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Keep in mind that now you can remove an enemy scheme marker no matter what you flip, just as long a minion is within 2" of it. So that rework is also a buff to his usefulness late game.

Gruesome Lecture is also exceedingly powerful and that ability is still intact, so I wouldn't worry too much about not having anything to do.

I think people are getting caught up in thinking that fast is still a turn 1 thing, whereas now it looks better the longer the game goes (and the more incidental scheme markers you have floating around). Since you don't have to worry about getting upgrades on you can also give out fast more widely.

I'm looking forward to trying out the new crew xD

[Math Mathonwy]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Gruesome Lecture is also exceedingly powerful and that ability is still intact, so I wouldn't worry too much about not having anything to do.

It lost a Blast from Weak so not "intact" as such (even though it certainly doesn't break the ability but it does impact the Injured thingy quite a bit).

Also, I dunno, for a Master attack I wouldn't call it "exceedingly powerful". It is certainly fine and good but about on the level I would expect from a Master who isn't primarily a fighter as such.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

It lost a Blast from Weak so not "intact" as such (even though it certainly doesn't break the ability but it does impact the Injured thingy quite a bit).

Also, I dunno, for a Master attack I wouldn't call it "exceedingly powerful". It is certainly fine and good but about on the level I would expect from a Master who isn't primarily a fighter as such.

Oh good point, that's a big deal then

[Paddywhack]

6 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

The rest of the game he actually felt like one of the weakest Masters in a way but of course that first turn was great and his keyword was amazing.

That was my feel too. I don't know I'd say weakest, but he himself didn't tend to do much but maybe hand out a Fast and some Focus. Good, but not game changing by himself. The issue is his keyword models are very good and efficient at what they do. Even the minor support he provided was enough to juice them. He had some usefullness as a decent Blaster (though that was taken away too), but sometimes I didn't have much to do with him. 

Of course fixing all of his keyword might have been too much to ask so they took the easier route of toning him and his support options down. I think he'll still play OK, but that's again because his keyword is pretty efficient. You could run his crew without him and still have a decent playing crew honestly. 

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Keep in mind that now you can remove an enemy scheme marker no matter what you flip, just as long a minion is within 2" of it. So that rework is also a buff to his usefulness late game.

Hmmm. Costs for Triggers are paid at the Declare Trigger phase (per FAQ) so yeah, you can always remove a Scheme marker at range as long as there is a minion nearby no matter the flip. I'm not sure that is much of a boost though. Maybe in GG2 it will help, but in GG1 I tried to take schemes that did not require I place scheme markers whenever possible. They were typically less action intensive to achieve and more difficult to counter. Don't know all the GG2 schemes yet to see how easy it is to avoid them now. 

Not sure that little buff (?) is enough to make up for all the other changes...  And in the end doesn't really change the way you can play them. Sloth can still give you a pretty decent Vale bomb if you want. 

[ShinChan]

Necropunks got hit too hard. They only purpose was to leap to score points, and that leap got nerfed from a 63% changes of flipping the right card from deck to 20%.

If they were too tanky for their cost (usually due to access to GST), that could have been addressed instead of touching the leap. They now have a worse leap than a Gupps.

There are 11 cards in the deck that allow you to leap (4  - 13  + RJ). Let's assume that, you want to leap, but don't want to use a severe from your hand to do it (neither the RJ), that leaves you 7 valid cards to ensure the leap. The chances of getting one of those in your starting hand are 30%, which means that on average, you'll be using your leap (aproximately) twice in a 5 turn game, unless you commit a severe mask from hand, which could bump the number up to 3 times.

Obviously, these numbers are taking into account that you don't bring 2 Necropunks, because then, only one will be able to leap with a minimum of consistency. Also they compete for the need of  with the Undergratuates, Students of Viscera and Valedictorian (Students of Sinew can use them, but they don't get that much of of it to be fair).

With Leveticus, the situation is even worse, since Amalgan doesn't have card draw, neither access to GST to make Necropunks an actual durable model (and obviously cannot summon them either).

It makes really difficult to believe that they checked this numbers (which is something a playtester has to do) and still though it will be fine. I do agree that the Necropunks needed a nerf, but this is awful.
 

Also, the nerf to the trigger "Positive Results" is also bad. Now it's not worth it, mainly due to the need of a scheme marker within 2" of the target. Just makes this action too resource intensive for a very small benefit, while not solving at all the real problem with that action: Valedictorian fast. You can still get the Valedictorian fast bringing Sloth, who will now be in most of the list, since there is no point in having an Undergraduate anymore.

I'm the first one that was all-in for a nerf to Schtook, since I literally stop playing him because neither my opponents or myself were having much fun with him, but this was definitely not the way.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Ugh, I just realised that Lampads still need a 5+ to get their Hovering Flame off, which is the main reason I stopped hiring them anyway.

So my prediction is that they remain a model I don't really want 😕

[Maniacal_cackle]

43 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

There are 11 cards in the deck that allow you to leap (4  - 13  + RJ). Let's assume that, you want to leap, but don't want to use a severe from your hand to do it (neither the RJ), that leaves you 7 valid cards to ensure the leap. The chances of getting one of those in your starting hand are 30%, which means that on average, you'll be using your leap (aproximately) twice in a 5 turn game, unless you commit a severe mask from hand, which could bump the number up to 3 times.

I think that's precisely how you have to look at it. You can expect ~2 leaps per game, but you can force more than that (especially if you save a 4from the previous turn) if you want to.

That's been my experience with Archie who got almost exactly the same treatment.

[ShinChan]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Ugh, I just realised that Lampads still need a 5+ to get their Hovering Flame off, which is the main reason I stopped hiring them anyway.

So my prediction is that they remain a model I don't really want 😕

For me, not having the printed trigger is the real issue, since Reva also likes those mask a lot, both for The Unquiet Dead and Embrace the Flame. Also shieldbearers, but I guess they still can use 1-4  .

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think that's precisely how you have to look at it. You can expect ~2 leaps per game, but you can force more than that (especially if you save a 4from the previous turn) if you want to.

That's been my experience with Archie who got almost exactly the same treatment.

Archie comes from a keyword that has a reasonable amount of "secured" card draw. Also Archie, if he doesn't have the mask can go puch people in the face, or throw them the corpses of their friends (while a Crooligan will carefully teleport to 2" of Archie and do the actual scheming).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, ShinChan said:

For me, not having the printed trigger is the real issue, since Reva also likes those mask a lot, both for The Unquiet Dead and Embrace the Flame. Also shieldbearers, but I guess they still can use 1-4  .

Archie comes from a keyword that has a reasonable amount of "secured" card draw. Also Archie, if he doesn't have the mask can go puch people in the face, or throw them the corpses of their friends (while a Crooligan will carefully teleport to 2" of Archie and do the actual scheming).

Yeah, I'll be honest the Necropunk nerf was the first one I was freaking out about, it seemed so over the top.

But all I'm saying is give it a go on the table. The Archie one worked out better than I thought, maybe this one is okay too.

[Maniacal_cackle]

One nice thing about the Lampad buff:

The models are gorgeous and some of my best paint jobs. So I get to put them on the table at least a few times to test them out xD

[Paddywhack]

22 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Ugh, I just realised that Lampads still need a 5+ to get their Hovering Flame off, which is the main reason I stopped hiring them anyway.

So my prediction is that they remain a model I don't really want 😕

Well, it used to be a 6., but yeah. I'm not sure they did enough to really make them worth 8SS. I still would have preferred they lose their Demise and open up how they could build them. I really think that Demise is why they ended up so blah. You can't make them too good and be hard to kill. I do wish they had built in the Mask. That would have been a great little buff that could have helped a lot. Especially as Reva's crew is already Mask hungry. 

[unti]

From faq 2/12. * If a model has multiple Abilities that resolve after it is targeted (such as Terrifying (X), Protected (X), or another model’s Take the Hit Ability) can it resolve more than one?* a) Yes. When a model is targeted all effects that would resolve are generated at the same time and can be resolved in any order (as per Simultaneous Effects on Pg 34). However, some effects may change the target of the Action, in which case that new model is not targeted and as such those effects aren’t generated a second time. Additionally, abilities such as Manipulative that affect Actions that target “this model” only apply to those Actions that are still targeting that model. For example, if a model with Take the Hit changes the target of an Action to itself, it would not benefit from any of the initial target’s Abilities such as Manipulative that require the Action to target “this model”, nor could it benefit from more of its own abilities that resolve when it is targeted (such as Terrifying).

 

 I read this and I don't know if I played it wrong before but does this mean if kirai uses protected to transfer an attack to jaakuna, jaakuna can't use her serene countenance and after damaging she can't use her vengeance?

[Modernpenguin]

On 4/23/2021 at 10:45 PM, ShinChan said:

Necropunks got hit too hard. They only purpose was to leap to score points, and that leap got nerfed from a 63% changes of flipping the right card from deck to 20%.

If they were too tanky for their cost (usually due to access to GST), that could have been addressed instead of touching the leap. They now have a worse leap than a Gupps.

 

they still have a better leap than wandering river monks, manos and lady J. the gupps in comparison matters little. the midnight stalker has the same leap as the gupps, the first mate as well. i know it isn't the same, but still.. as a monk player, i cry with my 5 health paper monks who needs a 5m to leap. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, unti said:

 I read this and I don't know if I played it wrong before but does this mean if kirai uses protected to transfer an attack to jaakuna, jaakuna can't use her serene countenance and after damaging she can't use her vengeance?

I think the answer there is more saying that if you use 'take the hit' from an Ashigaru to protect Jaakuna, you don't get the benefits of Serene Countenance for the Ashigaru.

[Stumpyfjord]

Or the double terrifying that people were arguing for (from GST or other source).

[unti]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think the answer there is more saying that if you use 'take the hit' from an Ashigaru to protect Jaakuna, you don't get the benefits of Serene Countenance for the Ashigaru.

Thanks for your answer, but I don't understand how it would resolve...

So what happens now when I use take the hit with an ashigaru with gst (terrifying)? Is the attacker flipping a terrifying duel? 

[touchdown]

57 minutes ago, unti said:

Thanks for your answer, but I don't understand how it would resolve...

So what happens now when I use take the hit with an ashigaru with gst (terrifying)? Is the attacker flipping a terrifying duel? 

you can only be subject to 1 terrifying duel per attack. If the Ashigaru take the hit from a non-terrifying model, the attacker would have to pass the duel, but if the first model also had terrifying the attacker passed, it wouldn't happen.