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GG2 / The road to the exit?


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8 hours ago, extremor said:

Maybe we get some nice toys in the NVB starter. Still believe in Wyrd. 

Yeah. I hope so too. The Outcasts got some pretty cool stuff. 

Bayou got, uh, some stuff, so far. 

Here's hoping Neverborn get something more like what Outcasts got. 

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8 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I switched out of the clusterfuck that is current NVB only because I still had outcast stuff from when I got in back in 1st edition. 

So you switched from neverborn because you think they only have 1 viable keyword(which is so demonstrably false it's just willful ignorance at this point)

...to outcasts?

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22 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

So you switched from neverborn because you think they only have 1 viable keyword(which is so demonstrably false it's just willful ignorance at this point)

...to outcasts?

Haven't you seen the Talos buff?

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9 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

So you switched from neverborn because you think they only have 1 viable keyword(which is so demonstrably false it's just willful ignorance at this point)

...to outcasts?

I mean... between Leveticus, Parker, Von Schill, Viktoria, and Zipp, I'm not pigeonholed into one great crew and a handful of mediocre ones and playing with one arm tied behind my back.  But you do you.

11 hours ago, extremor said:

Really? Which rank was Lucius? Which Marcus? Or: where can I get these infos?

According to the info Cackle posted, they went 2-8 combined, with Lucius going winless, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest considering Marcus is an ARC master that likes to paint himself purple to fit in and Lucius is trying to comprehend the details of 5D chess during a hockey game.

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1 minute ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean... between Leveticus, Parker, Von Schill, Viktoria, and Zipp, I'm not pigeonholed into one great crew and a handful of mediocre ones and playing with one arm tied behind my back.  But you do you.

Glad you found a faction you enjoy more, just don't see why you have to bash a faction that is performing so well.

7 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

According to the info Cackle posted, they went 2-8 combined, with Lucius going winless, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest considering Marcus is an ARC master that likes to paint himself purple to fit in and Lucius is trying to comprehend the details of 5D chess during a hockey game.

True, that is a bad record, but worth keeping in mind MOST masters have below a 50% winrate in the series (since most of the wins are concentrated in a handful of masters).

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2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Glad you found a faction you enjoy more, just don't see why you have to bash a faction that is performing so well.

True, that is a bad record, but worth keeping in mind MOST masters have below a 50% winrate in the series (since most of the wins are concentrated in a handful of masters).

I mean if you think they're doing well from one event where they are being carried by a singular master, I can't really argue with your logic.  I bash because I've seen the faction fall into the abyss over the last two years to the point where it's an uphill climb unless you want to do some one-trick cheese build i.e. Dreamer.  NVB has gone the way of the Guild.

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4 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean... between Leveticus, Parker, Von Schill, Viktoria, and Zipp, I'm not pigeonholed into one great crew and a handful of mediocre ones and playing with one arm tied behind my back.  But you do you.

There's a reason outcast is the least played faction in the world series in total and was only able to get together 4 players for the one iron scorpius event, and had a trend of people leaving it for other factions.

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1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean if you think they're doing well from one event where they are being carried by a singular master, I can't really argue with your logic.  I bash because I've seen the faction fall into the abyss over the last two years to the point where it's an uphill climb unless you want to do some one-trick cheese build i.e. Dreamer.  NVB has gone the way of the Guild.

It's actually an event every month, with participants from around the world. Every month has 60-100 players.

The calibre of player is also quite high. I have learned a lot from participating, and have discovered masters I thought were mediocre turn out to be top tier (like Tara).

4 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean... between Leveticus, Parker, Von Schill, Viktoria, and Zipp, I'm not pigeonholed into one great crew and a handful of mediocre ones and playing with one arm tied behind my back.  But you do you.

Interestingly, Leveticus, Parker, Von Schill, and the Viktorias all have sub-50% winrates in the series so far.

unknown.png

So at least in this series, I don't think that holds up.

Maybe you should sign up for it and show everyone that Outcasts really are better than Neverborn 😜

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On 4/23/2021 at 3:59 PM, Passenty said:

Surprised that some people have any faith in nekima after the changes-even saying she is better now. She was quite bad before, her only viable play was packing huge amount of focus for hitting her moderate of 5 but now with max focus 2 what is she doing titania dosent?

 

It was not that third Focus stack that carried Nekima through dark times. I find that, rather than focus stacking, Strategies have a much larger impact on her viability, namely those that reward aggressive alpha plays and mobility, which GG2 definitely does. No more Public Enemies and no more Recover Evidence means that folks can't just slow ball in their own deployment and expect to win. You've got to cross the center line and take non-killing actions, which Nephilim are just naturally good at (as well as denying)
Beyond that, a lot of the "soft" stances that came with the new errata and GG2 benefit Nephilim. While our summoned Terror Tots no longer can run strategies for us, they were always meant to turn into Young Nephilim and just kill things anyway. This also means that the plethora of summoners who sought to overpower us with AP-dumping (Break the Line would have been RIFE with summoners without that rule) can't, and losing their cheapy resummonables doesn't work as a point scoring method, so rushing with focused Matures and Nekima into whatever they were hoping to score with is quite strong. With the new Toward and Away rulings, Shove Aside is now a cone of movement that I can choose from, making our in melee offensive movement way more adaptable. And of course, "Another" back to the way God intended means that Nekima can take her own Enraged by Insolence attacks, placing the heat back on Nekima rather than her crew, which is where I want it, as she's the most likely to absorb and tank. 
What Nekima does that Titania doesn't, is synergize with the Nephilim keyword, move a potential 18 inches a turn while taking attacks with Frenzied Charge, and rob AP with 2 inch reach. Titania's great, and she's got a high win rate for a reason, but she is not a better Nekima.

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3 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean if you think they're doing well from one event where they are being carried by a singular master, I can't really argue with your logic.  I bash because I've seen the faction fall into the abyss over the last two years to the point where it's an uphill climb unless you want to do some one-trick cheese build i.e. Dreamer.  NVB has gone the way of the Guild.

We had a near identical discussion last year following the last errata from what I can remember, so I very much doubt that I can convince you that what you see, may well be true for you, but isn't true to a lot of people out there. 

I don't know what your events are like, and over the past year the only events I've really heard about are Vassal events. I know that those are only played by a small subset of the community, but between those (and the "world series" is a series of unconnected events, 1 a month, so does produce quite a lot of potentially useful data) and the threads I read on this forum I would not have said that Neverborn was a 1 trick pony.

In last months event dreamer had a 29% win ratio (2 wins out of 7), which was 5th highest in Neverborn (No one played Lucius or Nekima last month, Marcus only had a 17% win record, and I can't say what the faction breakdown was, likewise with Zoraida) and if the event had been 3 rounds rather than 4, a mono Euripides player would have placed 3rd, above the eventual winner.  There were 64 players, 10 of whom were Neverborn. 

Assuming all duel masters were played as neverborn (this is wrong, but I can't easily work out what is right), there were 37 neverborn games, they won 16, drew 3 and lost 18. Thats not a dead faction, and its not a faction that is being carried by just one master, because if I remove the dreamer results then the faction played 30 games, won 14, drew 3 and lost 13.  (Based on Bag of tools there were 40 games, and the results were 18 -2-20, but I don't know from there what masters were used, but it suggests the Zoriada draw was bayou)  

I fully admit this is only 1 event, and doesn't prove anything. (This breakdown tells us nothing about the skill of the players for example). It does disagree with your view on the game. There are many ways that this could be a blip, and your view is right, but there are more ways that your meta is the blip, and this is a better representation of the state of the faction prior to the errata. (If I jump back to february for example, Dreamer was top neverborn master with a 71% win record over 14 games, 10 wins and 2 draws, which does much more meet your expectation, but back in January he dropped back to only 2 wins in 7 games)

Likewise there is no way that I can say that the statement that "its harder work to win with neverborn" is wrong. My experience tells me that there are some playstyles that I find easy to play, and others that I find hard, and when I use masters that rely on the second type of play style I do badly, even when plenty of other people do well with them. I can't easily say how much extra work a person has to put into a master, and it may be that current Neverborn have a different skill progression than other factors. At the top end of play, they certainly can compete. It may be that they (or some of their masters) take more effort to get there than some other masters/factions, and there may be a fallow patch in the middle where you improve your skills, but without much improvement in results. 

  Its certainly possible that "new" neverborn have a style that is not good for you, and so you struggle with them more than you did with "old" neverborn. But that isn't universally true is the point I am trying to make.  

 

Data taken from

(Malifaux World Series 2020-2021 - Malifaux World Series | Tableau Public)

And Bag'o'tools Malifaux Tournament Admin (bag-o-tools.com)

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4 hours ago, Kharnage said:

It was not that third Focus stack that carried Nekima through dark times. I find that, rather than focus stacking, Strategies have a much larger impact on her viability, namely those that reward aggressive alpha plays and mobility, which GG2 definitely does. No more Public Enemies and no more Recover Evidence means that folks can't just slow ball in their own deployment and expect to win. You've got to cross the center line and take non-killing actions, which Nephilim are just naturally good at (as well as denying)
Beyond that, a lot of the "soft" stances that came with the new errata and GG2 benefit Nephilim. While our summoned Terror Tots no longer can run strategies for us, they were always meant to turn into Young Nephilim and just kill things anyway. This also means that the plethora of summoners who sought to overpower us with AP-dumping (Break the Line would have been RIFE with summoners without that rule) can't, and losing their cheapy resummonables doesn't work as a point scoring method, so rushing with focused Matures and Nekima into whatever they were hoping to score with is quite strong. With the new Toward and Away rulings, Shove Aside is now a cone of movement that I can choose from, making our in melee offensive movement way more adaptable. And of course, "Another" back to the way God intended means that Nekima can take her own Enraged by Insolence attacks, placing the heat back on Nekima rather than her crew, which is where I want it, as she's the most likely to absorb and tank. 
What Nekima does that Titania doesn't, is synergize with the Nephilim keyword, move a potential 18 inches a turn while taking attacks with Frenzied Charge, and rob AP with 2 inch reach. Titania's great, and she's got a high win rate for a reason, but she is not a better Nekima.

I'm not as confident as you are in the new GG2.  Sure the strategies are slightly more favored, but claim jump just became significantly harder since NVB lack a decent tank outside of Titania, and Vendetta got nerfed due to the new replace rules.  I expect the gains in possible strat points will be offset by the losses on the scheme side and it'll be similar to GG1.

  

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Interestingly, Leveticus, Parker, Von Schill, and the Viktorias all have sub-50% winrates in the series so far.

unknown.png

So at least in this series, I don't think that holds up.

I mean... by that logic then Leveticus needs a massive buff instead of the nerf he got, but I don't know that you'd survive the rioting trying to argue that 😆

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1 hour ago, Nagi21 said:

I'm not as confident as you are in the new GG2.  Sure the strategies are slightly more favored, but claim jump just became significantly harder since NVB lack a decent tank outside of Titania, and Vendetta got nerfed due to the new replace rules.  I expect the gains in possible strat points will be offset by the losses on the scheme side and it'll be similar to GG1

 

She loses in vendetta, nothing changed for claim jump ( I think the Rider can do claim jump with nekima) and she can use corpse markers for death beds. The other new scheme is not specially dificult with her (bait and switch), maybe she need lilitu to get the first point.

Out of Zoraida and Lucius, Nekima is better in card draw (lelu, lilitu). Most members of the crew have fly with me, and if you dont need condition removal Candy is a good healer , gives fast yo nephilim with regen, and has size 1, so you are not very affected by serena Nerf.

I think I would try Zoraida first, but I see Nekima able to be good at Break the line and Symbols. For Turf war I think Titania is better and for corrupted ley lines the Dreamer still has a lot of pushes.

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I am confused and unable to find the right part of the forum - but can summoned models no longer interact with strategy markers for the whole game? However, after the turn they are summoned they can interact in any other way.

For example - Summoned Ins. madness cannot ever do Break the Line as is summoned model, but, can drop scheme markers etc on the turn following their summon?

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10 minutes ago, FlippingWeak said:

I am confused and unable to find the right part of the forum - but can summoned models no longer interact with strategy markers for the whole game? However, after the turn they are summoned they can interact in any other way.

For example - Summoned Ins. madness cannot ever do Break the Line as is summoned model, but, can drop scheme markers etc on the turn following their summon?

If you are playing a gaining grounds 2 match then a summoned model can never interact with a strategy marker. If you are playing a rule book game or a GG0 or 1, then they can. 

The "rules" about summoned models and strategy markers is in the Gaining ground 2 document. I expect most people will treat this as a new core rule, but it isn't actually, it just applies if you are following GG2.   

 

EDIT- Quick reminder, it is a core rule errata that on the turn a model is summoned it is ignored for friendly schemes and strategies. 

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I do not know what Wird wanted to achieve with this GG2.

A huge disappointment is what I feel, I was deceived in my expectations(it was stupid to wait for something smart).

There were expectations of Bug Fixes GG1: with upgrades, some reasonable edits with thumbnails.

Today, going to the site, I caught myself thinking that-I'm already afraid to buy any thumbnails Wird-I'm just afraid to waste time and money.

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2 hours ago, 74legion said:

I do not know what Wird wanted to achieve with this GG2.

For me, it seems that Wyrd have tried to dial back the summoners in GG2. We see this in how they've added restrictions to Summon models when it comes to Strats and Schemes, and how they've nerfed many of the summoners.

It also feels like they've tried to reset some of the internal faction balance, by nerfing the outliners in each faction. 

2 hours ago, 74legion said:

I'm just afraid to waste time and money.

If you feel like that, then I'd recommend simply taking a break from Malifaux. Many asked for these changes, and it might be the direction that Wyrd is taking the game. It might also be a fluke, and maybe they'll revert some of the changes.

I personally like many of these changes, but understand why some feel like their favorit toys are ruined. Voicing your opinion and taking your business to a different place is a very valid reaction - But I urge you to instead try to adapt, and see if you cannot overcome these changes.

Nerfs happen in all games, and more often than not, there is a reason for it.

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1 hour ago, extremor said:

On second sight, beating has been dialed back. More scheming, positioning, interacting.....

 

i like a lot!!!

Killing is still good. Even more, if I kill your scheme Runners, you cannot summon more with gg2

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8 hours ago, 74legion said:

I'm just afraid to waste time and money.

I guess, you aren’t very experienced as a wargamer, since this is your reaction.

Know that in miniature wargaming things constantly change, the perfect game will never be - and Guildball which came close, proved too perfect to continue.

The thing is to ditch the illusion that you can buy yourself to victory. Dreamer will be less potent that is true, but he won’t be less fun, in fact the games you play with him will only be more challenging/fun - and to your opponent as well. 

The one true way to winning anyway, will always be to deploy a crew that wows your opponent with its paint job.

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Take Tara for example. She was considered bad last GG but now everyone expects her to do well this GG with minimal changes to her crew (Talos got a buff). 

 

Reality is the masters that got changed we're usually a NPE for your opponents and needed a tweak. Just because they got nerfed doesn't mean they're bad, they just may not be easy mode anymore. 

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6 hours ago, Shlowmoe said:

Take Tara for example. She was considered bad last GG but now everyone expects her to do well this GG with minimal changes to her crew (Talos got a buff). 

 

Reality is the masters that got changed we're usually a NPE for your opponents and needed a tweak. Just because they got nerfed doesn't mean they're bad, they just may not be easy mode anymore. 

Agreed. 

Part of war gaming and mastering a particular army / faction / leader / master is taking those leaders you might think are worse due to changes and finding new and innovative ways to play them. 

In my humble opinion, when you can do that, you have truly mastered your army. I would go one step further and say that's the essence of Faux.

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Well, just played nerfed Dreamer and it still felt incredible.

I took the same elite list I put above (Serena, Teddy, double spiders, double AP Daydream), and it was just ridiculous.

The opponent must have put at least 50 damage into me over the course of the game, but the crew's healing is still insane. Serena felt basically as strong as before, healing and condition removal a-plenty. Every turn she removed two stacks of burning (against Kaeris).

The crew's natural healing is pretty insane, and the constant repositioning to abuse the 2 inch engagement ranges is very good (not to mention a bit of shielded from Dreamer).

I got 3 points on Break the Line because the spiders are so darn good at running strategies. I only got one point on Outflank because he managed to kill one of my Outflankers at the last moment on turn 5. Claim Jump was still an easy 2 points with Serena Bowman.

Overall, it still feels like one of the strongest crews I've played. Certainly a lot stronger than like McCabe or Basse for example.

EDIT: I think it is safe to say that Serena Bowman carried the matchup. She was absolutely insane - and now being at stat 6 for her melee attack is pretty sweet.

EDIT2: I think Serena did about 4 healing most turns, so probably 15-20 healing over the course of the game... Super bonkers.

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