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Outcasts GG2 Errata


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2 hours ago, Trample said:

I agree, and consider too that all of the strategy markers are impassable (all four strats) so when you wind up a couple inches short of where you need to be next turn for something like symbols you save yourself an action. I wouldn't be surprised to see that come up once in most games. In Break the Line I can throw the marker with my last AP and move into base at the beginning of my next activation. Between the table edges and the strategy markers you have a decent amount of board area where this is triggered before you add terrain to the board. 

The bonus is better into this GG compared to the last one with 6 1/2 schemes that use scheme markers (counting Research Mission as 1/2). 

Agreed on all counts. Also, disguised is great in certain matchups. 

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Been thinking about the strats and schemes.

Yannic is going to be huge for a couple schemes. It lets you put scheme markers out on your own tablehalf without giving away what you're doing. Do you want that card draw or are you setting up Bait and Switch? Won't know until the end of the turn!

This is a good packet for Parker, a lot of pools are going to be very interact heavy. He also has models that can be useful while scoring outflank.

On that note, Desp Mercs *may* have a role doing the same thing. They're probably still too fragile.

There's 2 schemes that need non-scheme markers now. So while Levi got a nerf, Alyce will be better than ever. Zipp also seems really good for a number of schemes now.

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Mad Dog also brings a Marker, though you can't score the end point of Death Beds without Von Schill.

 

I don't think I'll be touching Parker for a hot minute though :( Will be interesting to get more table time with the Viktorias and Tara for much the same reasons that make Parker appealing.

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13 hours ago, Azahul said:

Mad Dog also brings a Marker, though you can't score the end point of Death Beds without Von Schill.

Why Von Schill specifically?

Zipp (& Earl & Malifaux Child) bring pianos

Mad Dog Blow it to Hell (can't be used for end point of Death Beds as you need 2 of the same marker)

Alice brings Pit Traps

Add that to strategy markers, schemes, corpse & scrap and Outcasts have a few ways to get markers for Death Beds or Research Mission

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31 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Why Von Schill specifically?

Zipp (& Earl & Malifaux Child) bring pianos

Mad Dog Blow it to Hell (can't be used for end point of Death Beds as you need 2 of the same marker)

Alice brings Pit Traps

Add that to strategy markers, schemes, corpse & scrap and Outcasts have a few ways to get markers for Death Beds or Research Mission

Oh I meant using Blown Apart Markers specifically for Death Beds was Von Schill specific. Millions of ways to score it with other markers.

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20 hours ago, Azahul said:

I don't think I'll be touching Parker for a hot minute though :( Will be interesting to get more table time with the Viktorias and Tara for much the same reasons that make Parker appealing.

I think you can have a pool where every scheme requires multiple interacts *and* the strategy requires multiple interacts per turn for full points, and Bandit is the only crew that can do keep up doing that I think.

He also has the best Outlank options I think, he's got models that still project threat quite well while hanging out in the corners and he can have them interact out of activation.

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16 hours ago, touchdown said:

I think you can have a pool where every scheme requires multiple interacts *and* the strategy requires multiple interacts per turn for full points, and Bandit is the only crew that can do keep up doing that I think.

He also has the best Outlank options I think, he's got models that still project threat quite well while hanging out in the corners and he can have them interact out of activation.

I agree. Parker looks like a pretty good option in this GG. We have an additional scheme marker based scheme (two if you discount runic binding) and the Bandit crew obviously loves those. The efficiency that Draw Their Attention brings to this season will be fantastic I expect. 

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16 hours ago, touchdown said:

I think you can have a pool where every scheme requires multiple interacts *and* the strategy requires multiple interacts per turn for full points, and Bandit is the only crew that can do keep up doing that I think.

He also has the best Outlank options I think, he's got models that still project threat quite well while hanging out in the corners and he can have them interact out of activation.

Oh, not denying that, but I played Parker a lot in GG1 and losing Wanted Criminal just hurts. Need to give myself some space before I try playing him again. Hate seeing a Master I love get nerfed.

 

Also lets me get out of my old headspace with Parker for other reasons. I used to run him very much as a central blob attrition crew on Public Enemies with great success, but that particular playstyle seems markedly less effective in GG2 so will need to shakeup my usual approach.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Haven't tried Levi yet, but I'm probably more inclined to play him now than I was before the nerf. That's probably down to me being contrary though and never really enjoying Leveticus before.

 

Mustered up the energy to play two games of post-nerf Parker though and... I'm just sad :( I have actually been using Stick Up! for the first time, which recaptures a little of the old Parker resource generation, but it never fails to make me sad that it's card draw or damage, my opponent gets to choose which, and I actually have to win the duel to get either. Had a game where I misread the Soulstone stealing trigger as After Resolving and not When Resolving which felt ok but whoops, not actually a thing. Plus after a turn of just making Stick Up! attacks there isn't anything to do with Parker's bonus, which even if you landed some Soulstone drain still makes his activation feel a bit anaemic. I think I'm just going to have to keep him on the shelf until something dramatically changes for Bandit, I'm too haunted by the ghost of what used to be 😅

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1 hour ago, Azahul said:

Haven't tried Levi yet, but I'm probably more inclined to play him now than I was before the nerf. That's probably down to me being contrary though and never really enjoying Leveticus before.

 

Mustered up the energy to play two games of post-nerf Parker though and... I'm just sad :( I have actually been using Stick Up! for the first time, which recaptures a little of the old Parker resource generation, but it never fails to make me sad that it's card draw or damage, my opponent gets to choose which, and I actually have to win the duel to get either. Had a game where I misread the Soulstone stealing trigger as After Resolving and not When Resolving which felt ok but whoops, not actually a thing. Plus after a turn of just making Stick Up! attacks there isn't anything to do with Parker's bonus, which even if you landed some Soulstone drain still makes his activation feel a bit anaemic. I think I'm just going to have to keep him on the shelf until something dramatically changes for Bandit, I'm too haunted by the ghost of what used to be 😅

While I do think the new Wanted Criminal upgrade is good, I have to agree that there are better options in most pools than Parker. Zipp, Von Schill, Tara, and perhaps even the Viktorias can cover about anything in GG2 more effectively than him. Mind you, that's my opinion with maybe around 10-12 GG2 games under my belt. I've tried him once and he was a bit underwhelming. I believe that's been the only game with Outcasts I've lost in GG2! I do still like the changes to Wanted Criminal. 

I hear you on Leveticus. While not being snowflake-y, I don't like playing the go-to masters so much. 

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It's interesting to probably only me, but when I first looked at this GG, as is evidenced in some of the above comments, I thought Parker would be great. Perhaps he still is, but after this GG has marinated a bit he's not one I get too excited about. It'll be interesting to see if that changes after a few months into this GG. 

On paper he looks great since Draw Their Attention and Fistful of Scrip are more effective in this GG, but as I build crews for certain pools, there aren't many where another keyword doesn't rise to the top in my mind. 

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19 minutes ago, Trample said:

It's interesting to probably only me, but when I first looked at this GG, as is evidenced in some of the above comments, I thought Parker would be great. Perhaps he still is, but after this GG has marinated a bit he's not one I get too excited about. It'll be interesting to see if that changes after a few months into this GG. 

On paper he looks great since Draw Their Attention and Fistful of Scrip are more effective in this GG, but as I build crews for certain pools, there aren't many where another keyword doesn't rise to the top in my mind. 

Not only you! But then I'm apparently the only one on the planet who considered Parker a strong GG1 Master and one of, if not the, best Public Enemies Master we had. So to me his strengths were never in being able to spread out and Interact, but being able to fuel a bloody-minded centre brawl long past the point where other crews would have been tapped for resources. When played as a flanking schemer crew he's... alright, but I'd rather just play Tara and it doesn't really key into what he does (or rather, did) better than the other Outcast Masters.

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On 6/4/2021 at 10:41 AM, Jkkb said:

Have anyone tried Levi after the nerfs, how is the crew now?

I gave him a try recently. By far the biggest change I noticed to Levi himself was the change to his demise. Getting 6 health back at most is challenging. The changes to channel but getting 6 stat on melee feels more like a side grade. The reduced aura is whatever. It did come up, but I lost out on a single point of healing, not game changing. The built in suit change isn't bad, if you really need to pack in damage you need a couple soul stones like other beaters, but going for the killing blow to get an abom feels better now.

Necropunks are still fine, but you can only support 1 now, and need to pay more attention to hand management.

Scavengers are different but still good. They're better at self support now, only needing a 5 to get focus + whatever else you want and still having 2 ap. It's kind of nice to pick other triggers besides burn out now.

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2 hours ago, touchdown said:

I gave him a try recently. By far the biggest change I noticed to Levi himself was the change to his demise. Getting 6 health back at most is challenging. The changes to channel but getting 6 stat on melee feels more like a side grade. The reduced aura is whatever. It did come up, but I lost out on a single point of healing, not game changing. The built in suit change isn't bad, if you really need to pack in damage you need a couple soul stones like other beaters, but going for the killing blow to get an abom feels better now.

Necropunks are still fine, but you can only support 1 now, and need to pay more attention to hand management.

Scavengers are different but still good. They're better at self support now, only needing a 5 to get focus + whatever else you want and still having 2 ap. It's kind of nice to pick other triggers besides burn out now.

I didn't have troubles with the coming back with 6 Wounds, but I always bring a healer. On the other hand, not removing the conditions is overkill, that's my main issue with him.

Channel gaining focused sucks, because if before they put Stunned on you and you're toasted, now you have a similar effect with Distracted. It should have stayed as :+flip to attack and/or damage but like now, only once per activation. Although I can live with this change.

Necropunks are garbage. There's no reason to bring 1 with Leveticus in you need to rely on them for scoring. Now it's better to bring more Scavengers for similar purpose, since they can push themselves.

The aura reduction (and now requiring LoS to heal) for Ruinous Repairs was too "gratuitous" and not called for at all... I felt it couple of times actually.

Changes to Ashes&Dust make it borderline unplayable in GG2.

Von Schill is way better than Leve in any GG2 and same goes for Zipp.

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I only have the one game and my opponent wasn't playing a condition crew so that change didn't affect me. I didn't use A&D either, I was trying to see how the direct changes worked out.

Necropunks are still tougher than Scavengers and cheaper so I think bringing 1 is conditionally worth it.

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Really, Wyrd should consider to improve a bit the leap on some models. 

The Necropunks were too good for 5ss IMHO, but there's better scheme runners out there, like Silurids or Gupps. I understand taking the mask, but maybe instead of less than 25% success rate, they could have gave them :+flipon the stat, so they still need a mask, but you have closer to 50% to succeed. 

 

Probably the Midnight Stalker could uave the same deal, specially since the nerf (if necropunks are garbage for 5ss, Midnight Stalker is 3ss more expensive and has the same issue with the leap).

 

What I strongly disagree is with the huge nerf on Leveticus. Totally undeserved. 

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On 6/23/2021 at 9:15 AM, Zebo said:

Really, Wyrd should consider to improve a bit the leap on some models. 

The Necropunks were too good for 5ss IMHO, but there's better scheme runners out there, like Silurids or Gupps. I understand taking the mask, but maybe instead of less than 25% success rate, they could have gave them :+flipon the stat, so they still need a mask, but you have closer to 50% to succeed.

The Onward! action with Rocket Man trigger felt like the obvious halfway point to me, but they decided against that.

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13 hours ago, touchdown said:

The Onward! action with Rocket Man trigger felt like the obvious halfway point to me, but they decided against that.

Something to consider with that is that they wouldn't be able to interact if they were engaged. With leap they can (if you've got the suit, of course!).

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  • 2 months later...

So my official thoughts is that first of all, we're seriously due for a round of buffs and we should compile them.  Some stuff from our starter box strongly suggests that Wyrd has understood a few truths.  Such as, for instance, that 5 health 4/5 soulstone minions with no defensive tech are much better off being 5 soulstones than being the action, high card, and maaaybe soulstone it cost to kill them.  Hi Desperados/WingedPlague/Desperatre Mercenary.  So I can only think that a buff errata is coming where things like them, the Convict Gunslinger, Barbaros (the Catalan Brawler is so much better) et al get tapped up.  My thought is it is ALSO going to be part of an errata that adjust most of the 4/5 soulstone models in the game, and that's probably a big sucker.  So I'm going to have faith in Wyrd.

Leveticus

So at his best, Leveticus was kind of a math problem.  He was 6/7, min 20, max 28 health, did beacoup damage, could constantly heal, and balance healing/damage very well.  From that perspective, I'm not overly sad he lost some survivability.  The damage on the other hand... I'm sorry, this is getting really irritating.  This is exactly the problem 2E Leveticus had, where you made him a damage monster but then removed it because "damage is scary". Unmaking was 2/3/4 did it really need a nerf?  After we tap danced on Ashes and Alyce already? 

Suggestion: Remove the :ranged from Unmaking.  It's 2/3/4 damage on a master action, does it need the :ToS-Range:?  No. 

The Scavenger "nerf" may actually be a buff to bringing 2/3.  The biggest change here is Wyrd Device losing fast, but gaining bonus.  That's overall huge, even if it means less Fast Alyce, because they now can do two normal actions, leading to their melee being far more useful (and their gun actually maybe firing now that you can walk/shoot it).  I believe it increase consistency, at the cost of maybe some Fast Alyce/Mad Dog shenanigans. 

Tara

Woo boy I have words.  So Talos' biggest problem was that in a hyper mobile crew based around hit and run tactics he didn't have access to his crew's signature movement option, making him a dumb robot with no ranged attack who you always saw coming and could blow up at your leisure.  Well, letting him hit buried models at least fixes that problem of "my opponent can measure 11 inches so now Talos is utterly useless" but oh boy the rest. 

See most of this stuff really doesn't help Tara much, as The Nothing Beast and Scion of the Void could already land min 3 attacks on buried models.  But other crews?  Well, they often have mobility options that are NOT "Stutter Time" like pushes and places.  For instance Scavenger's Weird Device, or Friekorps Librarian's Consolidate Power, or Dead Outlaw's Covetous Cravings.  

The biggest reason no one brought in The Nothing Beast to "counter buries" was you'd spend nthe stones and then your opponent wouldn't bury their Soulstone miner or something, so yay.  Great use of 10 stones on a reasonably fragile beater that doesn't synergize with your crew.  OTOH Talos at 9 is probably a much better beater for non-Tara crews.  Overall great for Outcasts for a tech piece, but not sure it helps Tara as much.  *sigh*

Midnight Stalker/Big Jake

So they replaced our 8 cost, hard-to-kill scheme runner with a 6 cost hard-to-kill scheme runner.  Interesting choice.  New Midnight Stalker is probably a tad fragile to spend 8 stones on, but Work of Art is certainly interesting. 

Wanted Criminal

What a great improvement.  Free 2" move (so disengage), bonus scheme marker removal, and for minions Disguised.  If your opponent has a gun line they might not even have a sane way to handle that.  I'm not sure how some crews handle a Wanted Criminal Ronin for instance, I guess they just let you score points. 

Overall, I'm eagerly trusting the buff patch and Wyrd to fix things, but this wasn't awful for us.  Just not great, and I feel like we weren't doing hot to begin with. 

 

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3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Midnight Stalker/Big Jake

So they replaced our 8 cost, hard-to-kill scheme runner with a 6 cost hard-to-kill scheme runner.  Interesting choice.  New Midnight Stalker is probably a tad fragile to spend 8 stones on, but Work of Art is certainly interesting. 

This has 100% been my experience. I love new Big Jake as an OOK schemer, especially on Turf War where he can seize a quadrant on his own and make flipping it back all sorts of inefficient. I've run him with the Stalker as a pair a fair bit too in some pools. The Stalker is fine if you use terrain and high mobility to keep him out of trouble. Some crews can run him down and kill him, but not all, so you mostly just need to know when he'll be a liability.

 

I've played a lot of new Talos in Tara and he works very well. In a crew with low to no card draw and a bunch of TNs to hit the pseudo injured Talos puts on buried models is honestly invaluable, and I'm not going to complain about having more Min 3s to throw around. Having a way to guarantee a bury rather than relying on the opponent failing simple duels is very important tech for enabling pieces like the Scion as well. 

 

Not sure I understand what you mean about Wanted Criminal helping against gunlines. Did you miss a negative in there? Feels like the main thing it doesn't help with.

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2 hours ago, Azahul said:

Not sure I understand what you mean about Wanted Criminal helping against gunlines. Did you miss a negative in there? Feels like the main thing it doesn't help with.

Yep, messed up stealth and disguise in my head.  Honestly only taken it a handful of times to escape tarpits.

Make a mistake on an internet forum and the usual etc.

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8 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Leveticus

So at his best, Leveticus was kind of a math problem.  He was 6/7, min 20, max 28 health, did beacoup damage, could constantly heal, and balance healing/damage very well.  From that perspective, I'm not overly sad he lost some survivability.  The damage on the other hand... I'm sorry, this is getting really irritating.  This is exactly the problem 2E Leveticus had, where you made him a damage monster but then removed it because "damage is scary". Unmaking was 2/3/4 did it really need a nerf?  After we tap danced on Ashes and Alyce already? 

Suggestion: Remove the :ranged from Unmaking.  It's 2/3/4 damage on a master action, does it need the :ToS-Range:?  No. 

Agree on Levi, same story as M2E. Master is build around reborn, high dmg and self dmg. After few games it's changed without giving too much new unique things. Moreover at the same time new Jedza will have even better dmg track that cannot be reduced :(:(

OK, WYRD can take nerf things, but please make Levi interesting and unique with something new. 

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sI don't think Midnight Stalker and Big Jake are in any way meant for the same situation. While pre-errata Midnight Stalker and post-errata Big Jake have similar tricks for surviving, albeit better in the case of Midnight Stalker, what they want to do is pretty different. Midnight Stalker's worth came from his insane mobility coupled and the occasional 3 attacks. Big Jake's worth comes from Don't Mind Me. While Big Jake isn't the slowest model it will take much longer to reach the places you wanted Midnight Stalker to interact in.

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