You got what you wanted. Colette nerfed into oblivion

[Plaag]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Are you thinking soulstone cache? That can still be taken.

Magical training is the one that increases hand size.

Rider was nerfed so you can't reactive a model that costs more than 8.

and they just dint listen abt rider-they nerfed reactivation(fair enough) but they didnt reworked other triggers, that have no use

[Plaag]

3 hours ago, Jordon said:

Honestly, I feel like these changes are pretty fair.

Reactivate went away for a reason in M3E. Having such a powerful ability on Mech Rider was bound to create issues sooner or later. It's still exceptionally powerful IMO.

I think we should be thankful that Sandeep got away unscathed thanks to the nerf to Kandara (summon nerf excluding). Card draw seems to have gotten hit across the board, and rightfully so. The replacement ability is still useful and falls more in line with the effectiveness of the other Mantras.

Likewise, I think the change to Magical Training was really just addressing the soulstone miner interaction. Instead of nerfing the miner, we got a bit stricter with this upgrade. Seems fitting as we already have a "construct" specific upgrade, now we have a living one as well.

Then we get to the big one with Colette. It was obvious this was coming. We just didn't know how hard it was going to hit her. My gut reaction is that she's still in contention as top arcanist. Giving her more direct synergy within her keyword is only a good thing in my mind. Presto is probably the biggest change to her card but even that got a little compensation with the loss of a required suit and a better trigger. I also appreciate the change to a ram as tomes should now be a bit more coveted for her defense. As others have pointed out, distracted got a bit of a buff. Now she'll need to rely more on distracted and less on bury, which feels right to me.  

With everyone else's boogymen getting equally cut down (explorers excluded for now), I don't think we'll really even miss her old card. Hopefully this allows for a bit more diversity amongst the rest of the masters. 

 

Now with the big bads out of the picture, hopefully we can focus on bringing up some of the stragglers (looking at you December)

and kandara should have wording:"look card, if it a tomes-reveal and draw, if not - this model can choose to discard it"

i tried to play with nerfed kandara-during all game i drew 2 cards and can do nothing good if some bad card is at top of the deck, this is bad

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Doesn't colette prefer to presto-chango her doves anyway? So this doesn't hit her core play (although I know of course it is nice to have the other options).

Ohhhhhh, but it is now 8" jump instead of 16". That's pretty wild, what a nerf. That's gotta be the biggest nerf out of anyone?

presto chango got nerfed, but summon of doves get buff, so its fine

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I thought you thought the best thing about Dreamer was Lucid Dreams? Now half the cards are lost every turn.

no-i told it many times-his keyword need a complicated nerf-this is not abt lucid-even on first turns his band give too much impact-i had a game with my colette crew vs my friend that played dreamer first time-i killed bbs and 2 daydreames with up at the start of 2 turn, but i lost with no chances and at the end of a game i got near 20ss crew and he had over 50ss crew

to be fair-i didnt win against dreamer m3e with arcanists, but played over 10 games against him

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, Plaag said:

no-i told it many times-his keyword need a complicated nerf-this is not abt lucid-even on first turns his band give too much impact-i had a game with my colette crew vs my friend that played dreamer first time-i killed bbs and 2 daydreames with up at the start of 2 turn, but i lost with no chances and at the end of a game i got near 20ss crew and he had over 50ss crew

to be fair-i didnt win against dreamer m3e with arcanists, but played over 10 games against him

Oh, I had forgotten that.

I agree then. I was always in the camp that lucid dreams isn't the strongest thing about Dreamer. He is strong from turn 1 and then gets even stronger.

[Plaag]

and what they did with toward/away?

now u are standing in btb, for example, u can choose model to move to the other side of your base and model will go around you, because during this move u will be in btb every time and u will not go away

[Jinn]

Yeah, Dreamer definitely got the lightest touch, but the general summon nerfs might be enough to keep him in check. NB are already complaining he's useless just like they did last time he was nerfed. Stitched are still insane.

Insidious madnesses just became truly busted with the distracted change and their simple duel that can end focus and give distracted.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

Yeah, Dreamer definitely got the lightest touch, but the general summon nerfs might be enough to keep him in check. NB are already complaining he's useless just like they did last time he was nerfed. Stitched are still insane.

Insidious madnesses just became truly busted with the distracted change and their simple duel that can end focus and give distracted.

as i saw-dreamer plays "nobrain come to opp with all crew and kill all stuff" and it is damn hard to deal with-i failed each time

and he can score because opp need to survive all the time

[dancater]

In regards to the nerfs or not.

We all can agree Colette was the general consensus strongest master in Arcanists, she was primed for a nerf.

Notably the strongest masters, as I understand, in most of the factions similarly got some sort of nerf, Von Schtook, Dreamer, Leveticus, Som'er, Yan Lo, that is 6 of the 7 older core factions. In addition there were targeted nerfs to other troublesome models and some generalised rules changes which function to boost or nerf some mechanics. So it is pretty obvious that Wyrd looked at the "strongest" masters within each faction and attempted to address them, pulling them down more towards the centre regards power within their respective factions.

Now notably two factions did not have their strong masters touched in the targeted way everyone else did.

Explorers, they are the new hotness as we all know, Wyrd was not going to nerf a release literally only a matter of months old, and justifiably they can argue that there simply is inadequate data in which to do so. Sure people are screaming that x, y and z are OP, but let's see how things are when some GG2 games have been played and counters begin to emerge (or it is discovered that there is no simple counter).

Guild, and here I'll highlight Dashal who does seem to be the strongest master in Guild. But then Guild is dumped on as the weakest faction. So perhaps the thinking is that with the nerf to summoning (which effects Dashal) and Focus (a powerful mechanic in the strongest gunline faction) and Phiona (I understand the strongest henchman) will be adequate to slightly reduce Dashal in line with other Guild masters and at the same time slightly reduce Guild while the stronger factions climb a little closer to the centre line.

I will maintain that the Colette nerf does not seem to make her totally unplayable in Arcanist's, I still think she and her crew (which got stronger) will find a place and can at least compete in most opponent, scheme, strategy pools (compete, may mean be strong or weak depending) and she will still be a priority choice in certain combinations. That is what I want first and foremost, Colette to be viable but not overpowered. The "power" tier within the faction has changed, it will need to shake out, but I don't see Colette plummeting into a basement purgatory.

In addition I don't think that Arcanists are a junk faction compared to the others, I still think they are a strong, vibrant and diverse band of revolutionaries and rebel rousers. I think each of the core factions except for Guild got at least some sort of nerf, the "power" tier of each faction in relation to the others has changed (especially and more so because of Explorers than the errata or GG2) and needs to shake out, but I don't feel Arcanists have been exiled to the grave of non-competitive. As stated the previous 'weakest' faction, Guild, has seen the smallest hit and every other faction has seen at least some nerf.

Seems to be pretty fair to me overall. Could it have been more, less, different, will it all work exactly as hoped to create a 'perfect' game balance, hell no. But the intention seems pretty clear, the changes not unreasonable and I'd rather see a fewer models changed than huge swathes verging on a entire rework of the factions from the ground up. 

  

 

[Jinn]

Honestly the balance changes seem pretty reasonable overall, explorers not withstanding and they have a decent excuse for that.

The main problem is that all the really crappy models didn't get a buff. Last errata people thought that maybe they were taking it a bit slow and focusing on the strong stuff, maybe there'd be another buff focused errata soon enough, but that hasn't happened. Instead we have another nerf heavy errata that hasn't touched most of the worst keywords, let alone the individual problem masters and models. A handful of models were directly buffed, none of them in Arcanists.

I'm never going to hire a Moleman or a Hoarcat as it stands. Rasputina is as unfun and clunky to play as ever, and most of the gamin are hot garbage outside of Sandeep lists (and who knows how that Kandara nerf will affect this). I really hope this isn't going to be the only or main style of errata going forward.

I will say that the few models they have buffed seem to be generally pretty great changes, but they could have been a bit more aggressive with it. As an early proponent of Youko Hamasaki needing buffs, her changes seem amazingly well done and I'd like to see similar improvements to Raspy and "never take" models.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

Honestly the balance changes seem pretty reasonable overall, explorers not withstanding and they have a decent excuse for that.

The main problem is that all the really crappy models didn't get a buff. Last errata people thought that maybe they were taking it a bit slow and focusing on the strong stuff, maybe there'd be another buff focused errata soon enough, but that hasn't happened. Instead we have another nerf heavy errata that hasn't touched most of the worst keywords, let alone the individual problem masters and models. A handful of models were directly buffed, none of them in Arcanists.

I'm never going to hire a Moleman or a Hoarcat as it stands. Rasputina is as unfun and clunky to play as ever, and most of the gamin are hot garbage outside of Sandeep lists (and who knows how that Kandara nerf will affect this). I really hope this isn't going to be the only or main style of errata going forward.

I will say that the few models they have buffed seem to be generally pretty great changes, but they could have been a bit more aggressive with it. As an early proponent of Youko Hamasaki needing buffs, her changes seem amazingly well done and I'd like to see similar improvements to Raspy and "never take" models.

they gave talos hammer that can target buried models...look at lazar now who copy it

it was better to give him ability to target buried, not an action

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, Plaag said:

they gave talos hammer that can target buried models...look at lazar now who copy it

it was better to give him ability to target buried, not an action

I mean, yes this is now possible. Is it that likely? I guess if you know you are facing Colette or Misaki or Dreamer then you might want to make sure you can target Buried models, so you might now hire in Talos. How likely are you to want to hire in Talos and Lazarus? (when you could have hired in Talos and Nothing Beast for probably the same cost)

[eddy]

Dustracted changes are actualy hiden nerf for Haratas haka. Now enemy can just cancel distracted with focus for straight flip

[katadder]

Yeah people don't hire lazarous, and there are enough models in outcasts that target buried that it doesn't matter much anyway.

[Azkral]

8 hours ago, Plaag said:

dreamer was not nerfed at all

he cannt summon stitched, but widow veawer did it better with 2 wicked dolls from start, stitches themself was not nerf, serena didnt lose demise and still can heal almost the same, madness didnt lose scatter and remove focuses without opposed, create web is still DROP, summon still come on the field when they are needed from bury

Now every turn you discard half the cards you removed with Lucid dreams. That was a Big Nerf, i Hope It Will make elite nightmares like coppelius or Teddy more common in lists

[DuBlanck]

Were people behaving outrageously with Sparks previously? Here or in the Bayou?

I struggled to justify him most of the time in Mei crews, as noted by previous posters, and now it seems like a lot of his use cases have been removed. Making him more reliable on some stuff doesn't feel like a useful balance - I rarely want to be spending stones through him.

[Thatguy]

14 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

Were people behaving outrageously with Sparks previously? Here or in the Bayou?

He was definitely better in Bayou where there are lots of cheap minions, some of which explode already, to pack with explosives. Som'er in particular could detonate stuff for 5 pulse damage without any resist. 

I agree that the Henchman boost is strange. He didn't get any abilities that seem to scream a need for stones/suits.

[Spratford]

4 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I agree that the Henchman boost is strange. He didn't get any abilities that seem to scream a need for stones/suits.

Well it’s obviously so you can declare Bayou Foundry in henchman hardcore...right? 

[Mycellanious]

I don't know I feel like Arcanists are a contender for weakest Faction in the game now. Guild still takes the spot, but can we put together anything like the Guild superfriends list that is exclusively played? Colette and Sansdeep definitely needed nerfs, but I feel like our other Masters needed help they didn't get.

[Jordon]

I feel like historically, Arcanists have always fared well in tournaments. I don't think Colette was the glue holding the whole faction together. The meta will drastically change after this update so who can say where anyone will be competitively.

Everyone loosing their super master, summoning getting toned down, focus getting toned down, new set of schemes and strategies. I'm sorry but there's no way anyone is going to be able to predict where anyone stands for quite some time.

[Azahul]

I've been seeing the same conversation in Outcast discussions about the Leveticus nerfs, with some people saying he was all that was holding the faction together. Boy it sure seems like there's a lot of competition for that weakest faction slot!

 

With Colette specifically, the new Strategy pool all seems to be really good for her, or am I reading that wrong? Not like Leveticus who copped nerfs and saw the GG pack shift to something he's not super well equipped for. I mean he won't be terrible but it's not like there's a Public Enemies for him.

[admiralvorkraft]

18 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I don't know I feel like Arcanists are a contender for weakest Faction in the game now. Guild still takes the spot, but can we put together anything like the Guild superfriends list that is exclusively played? Colette and Sansdeep definitely needed nerfs, but I feel like our other Masters needed help they didn't get.

The Guild super friends list is inexplicably bad for such a dominant meme, but okay. 

Colette's keyword got massively boosted with the changes to focus/distracted and an actual scheme pool with viable schemes. She's going to see play, but she'll play in-keyword now. 

[Thatguy]

57 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

The Guild super friends list is inexplicably bad for such a dominant meme, but okay. 

Yeah. Guild needs it's crutch. 

Pretty sure there was a reason that Trained Ninja got changed but LLC is still the same. Lol

19 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

feel like our other Masters needed help they didn't get.

Outside of Rasputina, I don't think that  anyone in Arcanists is significantly below the curve, and this Errata flattened the curve quite a bit.

[admiralvorkraft]

53 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Yeah. Guild needs it's crutch. 

Pretty sure there was a reason that Trained Ninja got changed but LLC is still the same. Lol

I wouldn't say that. I'd say success with Guild is more dependent on strong wargaming fundamentals and a deep knowledge of counter-tech.

We have few keywords (mostly Hoffman) that just by existing dictate terms of engagement the way Plague or Ancestor or something does. We tend to have to play a disrupt and counter-punch game instead. 

The models in the super friends list are broadly the models that are best at setting the terms of combat. The list completely falls apart against a crew that declines that fight and/or puts decent pressure on the Rider. So *shrug*.

But I'm off topic so I'll leave it at that. 

[Jordon]

I'm liking the sounds of the new Presto Chango the more I think about it.
 

1. Send dove forward (comfortably within 8" of Colette)
2. Have another dove and a friendly model next to Colette
3. Have Colette Presto, killing the nearby dove for a ram (and a card). Drop scheme marker in front of forward dove
4. Swap forward dove with friendly model next to Colette
5. Swapped dove is now next to Colette to allow her to do it again

Obviously you'll need to make sure your very deliberate with your spacing. However with just a single 8+ of any suit you get

• Roughly a 10" place for friendly model
• Roughly 9" place with a friendly scheme marker
• Replacement Dove
• Free card

Doesn't sound all that bad to me