Is toss in the mud a mistake?

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

Toss in the Mud - was it supposed to be a melee attack, same as Pride accidentally had no melee symbol on his attack action until the errata?

It is an ability that is on wrestlers and everything about it screams melee attack (it is literally just shoving someone into some mud). Models with the ability are generally considered quite mediocre models, but would suddenly have their whole kit make sense if it was a melee attack.

I've lost my open beta cards so can't check if it was ever intended to be a melee attack, but it just feels like the whole ability doesn't work. Any thoughts/insights? Reckon it is a mistake and it was meant to be printed with a melee symbol and now it's too late to change? xD

[muraki 1,328]

Looking back at open beta cards (yeah I never got rid of em), it was not a melee attack.  That said, I think people weren't as upset about it not being a melee as the switch from m2e to m3e and the changes to charge probably kept people from realizing how useful it would be as a melee rather than a close magic attack.

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

4 minutes ago, muraki said:

Looking back at open beta cards (yeah I never got rid of em), it was not a melee attack.  That said, I think people weren't as upset about it not being a melee as the switch from m2e to m3e and the changes to charge probably kept people from realizing how useful it would be as a melee rather than a close magic attack.

Ahhhh right right, so it could just be funky design. Although I mean even the beta cards could be a mistake, but at least we know it wasn't tested this way!

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

It also seems like the shortest range non-melee attack in the game? Other than this, all non-melee attacks have a much greater range, right?

[muraki 1,328]

Well Toss is a 1 inch magic attack, which I've seen so many people forget that it's not a melee and charge + toss (ha).  Sword trick is also 3 inches and magic, but as a free action it's not as worrisome for the charge.

[touchdown 201]

I think this is intentional because they don't want these models having a 2" engagement

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

1 minute ago, touchdown said:

I think this is intentional because they don't want these models having a 2" engagement

Yeah, I've wondered if that was the deciding factor (although even then, a 1" melee ability would still make way more sense in my eye.

Ah well, I guess it is just one of those things!

[muraki 1,328]

2 minutes ago, touchdown said:

I think this is intentional because they don't want these models having a 2" engagement

That's a good call out.  I forgot how the beta tried to take a lot of 2 inch melees and kick em down to 1s where possible.

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

Although one thing to note is that the factions that have this ability, 2 inch engagement ranges are already common place.

Like if Bayou Smuggler gets 2" engagement, all 5 toss in the mud models make sense to me as 2" engagement pieces (and of course, Bad Juju already has 2" engagement).

[Adran 4,526]

From a rules point of view, not giving it the has 2 main effects. It makes it not be an engagement range, and it means you can't do it on the charge. So in general an action being a makes it better with no real down side. 

I don't know why its not, but its probably an action that is performed on friendly's more than enemies, and so they didn't want them to become extremely efficient pushers by being able to do it on the charge. (I would expect lots of first turns being toss it in the mud, charge and toss in the mud again, moving the unactivated model 4" and the pusher probably 5". 

I haven't checked all the beta files I have, but I can't see it ever having had the 

Toss has a shorter range than toss in the mud, and isn't a  action either. Lead the way has the same 2" range, so its not unique. There may be other standard actions with ranges that short, I've not looked through them all. (These all have pushing as a main effect, so I would guess they could all be the same reason)

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

From a rules point of view, not giving it the has 2 main effects. It makes it not be an engagement range, and it means you can't do it on the charge. So in general an action being a makes it better with no real down side. 

I don't know why its not, but its probably an action that is performed on friendly's more than enemies, and so they didn't want them to become extremely efficient pushers by being able to do it on the charge. (I would expect lots of first turns being toss it in the mud, charge and toss in the mud again, moving the unactivated model 4" and the pusher probably 5". 

I haven't checked all the beta files I have, but I can't see it ever having had the 

I think this is still overall fine. 4" of pushing another model and 5" of movement for yourself is still less efficient than just double walking, so it is trading efficiency for concentrating movement in one model. But worth noting that even with the charge it is lost efficiency for this turn 1 scenario, so it seems REALLY bad without the charge (as seen by every existing toss in the mud model being generally considered mediocre, although I think Juju is alright).

Not to mention many models can charge and push models around I think (most noteworthy being Shieldbearers, although they do ping for 1 when they do it, but they can push 6 inches).

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Toss has a shorter range than toss in the mud, and isn't a  action either. Lead the way has the same 2" range, so its not unique. There may be other standard actions with ranges that short, I've not looked through them all. (These all have pushing as a main effect, so I would guess they could all be the same reason)

That's a fair point, there seems to be a trend with some of the repositioning stuff, but I feel like there's a big difference between Toss (10"), Lead the Way (8" of movement), and Toss in the Mud (2" of movement).

[dannydb 235]

id also like to point out this mean toss (in mud) not having melee means its effected by concilement...... dam zip and having to focus to toss you away

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

3 minutes ago, dannydb said:

id also like to point out this mean toss (in mud) not having melee means its effected by concilement...... dam zip and having to focus to toss you away

Ahahhaha, what the hell, that is so messed up xD

[Adran 4,526]

1 hour ago, dannydb said:

id also like to point out this mean toss (in mud) not having melee means its effected by concilement...... dam zip and having to focus to toss you away

Since Toss doesn't have a TN, it doesn't really matter for toss (on friendlies anyway). It does make it harder to toss in the mud when you can't easily see the mud. 

And in general I think the more useful part of Toss in the mud is the condition removal, giving it a 7 or 8" condition removal action (Charge and remove condition) might be a reason. (although different models might have different plans, such as I can see the pushing through multiple hazardous pretty useful in syndicate)   I don't think anything we have with Toss in the mud would break if it was a  action, but I'm sure several of them would get picked more. 

[andorman 3]

Stat 7 toss in the mud does make Juju a *very* reliable piece for moving models off of objectives, which is relevant to a lot of things in GG1.

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

Since Toss doesn't have a TN, it doesn't really matter for toss (on friendlies anyway). It does make it harder to toss in the mud when you can't easily see the mud. 

And in general I think the more useful part of Toss in the mud is the condition removal, giving it a 7 or 8" condition removal action (Charge and remove condition) might be a reason. (although different models might have different plans, such as I can see the pushing through multiple hazardous pretty useful in syndicate)   I don't think anything we have with Toss in the mud would break if it was a  action, but I'm sure several of them would get picked more. 

It has TN12.

They would all get picked more, but also all of them are generally considered bad (although I think Juju and McTavish are okay).

3 hours ago, andorman said:

Stat 7 toss in the mud does make Juju a *very* reliable piece for moving models off of objectives, which is relevant to a lot of things in GG1.

Good point!

[Cats Laughing 188]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It has TN12.

Toss has no TN

Toss in the Mud has the TN 12 you mention

 

FWIW, I made the same mistake reading Adran's post the first time.

[Maniacal_cackle 1,536]

Oh right xD

[touchdown 201]

fwiw the Catalan Brawler can double Toss in the Mud a friendly using Price of Progress for the reposition trigger.

edit: as a turn 1 movement trick, if you want it

[Thatguy 230]

3 hours ago, touchdown said:

fwiw the Catalan Brawler can double Toss in the Mud a friendly using Price of Progress for the reposition trigger.

edit: as a turn 1 movement trick, if you want it

Toss in the Mud + the Daze trigger is pretty nice too. Clear all conditions, move them 5". Probably not a thing to use on your own models, but if you don't mind stunned 5" of movement ain't bad.
I am going to blame Catalan Brawler if Toss in the Mud doesn't get a Claw symbol in the next errata.