Zoraida, bayou to neverborn.

[Matt McDonald]

Hi all, long time lurker and first time poster. Starting to get back into malifaux and was curious what benefits neverborn zoraida has over bayou zoraida or vice versa. Would love to get some more info playing her in neverborn and what models are key to running her well. Thanks all and happy easter.

[Thatguy]

I'd like to hear ideas too. 

I feel like with how strong Eyes in the Night is, Zorida is strongly incentivized to stay in keyword. But I'm sure with how WP heavy Neverborn are, I'm sure there are some good OoK picks. 

Just the upgrades seem like they would make some playstyle changes. Losing out on Two Gremlins and disguise immunity seems rough. Inhuman Reflexes for a pseudo Butterfly Jump on models that have stealth, and maybe butterly jump, could be neat. 

[SEV]

I'm by no means a Mama Z expert, but I since I started to play her I tried her both in Bayou and in Neverborn.

Bayou have the best upgrade (easily). So it comes down to the versatile/OOK pick.

Sniper: Rami vs Angel Eye... Avantage Bayou, mainly for the SS reduction.

Healer : doesn't really matter since both have access to Bokor. But Serena for the condition removal and anti-armor tech can be good... So advantage NB.

Emissary: NB Emissary is a good anchor and a great Obey target. Bayou Emissary is a tech piece (anti-marker) and an all-star in leyline... Still, I think NB as the advantage here.

Combo pieces :  clearly NB. You can have a six-game of puppet generation with Vasi. At this point a BBS can also be hire for a t1 mature + focus pulse. Bayou have some neat card draw /focus pulse with Samy and 12 cup on Juju. Maybe you can do some Shenanigans with Spark + bombs + obey but I never tried.

Beaters : I rarely hired OOK/versatile  beaters (other than BBS in to Mature). Hinamatsu can be good in NB. I guess the whisky golem could also help in Bayou... Advantage NB I guess.

Special units : Rider (count as a beater as well), Candy for NB (also Thoon, but I never tried him)... Gracey for Bayou if you want to carry Mama Z around? Again advantage NB.

There's probably more choices than that (as I said I'm not the most experienced Z player out here). Still, I think we clearly see that Z Neverborn has better choices.

Is this enough to offset the Bayou upgrade... I don't know. 

But, except if your plan is to solo Z, you also need to see how she complements your master pool in each faction. She brings great Scheming potential to NB + Stealh models... So all in all, I think she brings more to NB than to Bayou. 

Finally, if you play multiple masters, Z is an amazing support piece. In this role I think she's more helpful in NB than in Bayou.

So I guess this is my case for NB Z... But I like her in both faction. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, SEV said:

Combo pieces :  clearly NB. You can have a six-game of puppet generation with Vasi. At this point a BBS can also be hire for a t1 mature + focus pulse. Bayou have some neat card draw /focus pulse with Samy and 12 cup on Juju. Maybe you can do some Shenanigans with Spark + bombs + obey but I never tried.

Just want to add Widow Weaver here. Zoraida is the only Neverborn model that can produce scrap markers easily which is presumably why you mentioned Vasi, but Widow Weaver is the better summoner.

Of course, if you're planning on abusing Vasi for other reasons (obeying to produce bonus actions), then it can be the superior option as you point out with BBS.

[Math Mathonwy]

22 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I feel like with how strong Eyes in the Night is, Zorida is strongly incentivized to stay in keyword. But I'm sure with how WP heavy Neverborn are, I'm sure there are some good OoK picks. 

I don't know that you really need all your models to be nodes for Zoraida - I think that having two or three models that do not share keyword with Zoraida still allows you plenty of reach and threat for her.

But yeah, in general I agree with @SEV- NB has better Versatiles and OOK models for Zoraida for the most part with just Marker Removal being something that Bayou really excels at on a wholly different level compared to NB (Emissary, Gluttony, Mancha Roja).

I also don't consider Ghillie Suit an autotake for Zoraida - depends on the opponent a lot.

[Roadhouse]

Bayou vs NVB hands down goes to NVB. This is from several nested synergies.

Voodoo scrap gets turned into a Stitched by Vasilisa(requires 9Mask)

Vasilisa can make a BBS grow on T1

Black Blood, from BBS, takes Bokors to the next level

Bokors with Fast and tons of Glowy draw lots of cards (>=9Mask being the key).

With the above youre pulsing Focus twice, replacing for a 4ss gain, and summoning a 6ss, likely undercosted, model and that doesn't cover what else Vasi or the Bokor do the rest of the game. Z allows for an amazing engine in NVB that doesn't have a parallel in Bayou

[Thatguy]

Idk. Bayou has a lot of synergies too. 

Sammy is nuts with bokors and can net you massive card draw. They can draw 9+ cards a turn together without to much effort. 

Slop Haulers summoning fast significant scheme runners after riding beast taxies. 

And Lenny's stat 5 vs Sz Toss in an Obey heavy crew. It's not out of the questions to keep your opponent in their own deployment zone the whole game. 

[SEV]

56 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Lenny's stat 5 vs Sz Toss in an Obey heavy crew. It's not out of the questions to keep your opponent in their own deployment zone the whole game. 

Nice! Tossing your own models is also a good way to get out of corner, or reposition Z.

[extremor]

4 hours ago, Roadhouse said:

Bayou vs NVB hands down goes to NVB. This is from several nested synergies.

Voodoo scrap gets turned into a Stitched by Vasilisa(requires 9Mask)

Vasilisa can make a BBS grow on T1

Black Blood, from BBS, takes Bokors to the next level

Bokors with Fast and tons of Glowy draw lots of cards (>=9Mask being the key).

With the above youre pulsing Focus twice, replacing for a 4ss gain, and summoning a 6ss, likely undercosted, model and that doesn't cover what else Vasi or the Bokor do the rest of the game. Z allows for an amazing engine in NVB that doesn't have a parallel in Bayou

Well if I‘m not mistaken you need 3x  of wich one has to be 9(+) because you need the blood sacrifice trigger twice, right? But yes this synergies are awesome and you get a huge benefit from this. Bokor are nuts. 

[Adran]

Short answer - If you're planning on playing just Zoraida, then don't restrict yourself to just 1 faction. Play her in both and see what you like.  If you are planning on buying multiple masters then you probably want to look to see what other masters you want from the factions and then base your faction choice on a combination of how you want to play Zoraida, which factions models you like best and which factions Masters you like best. 

[Roadhouse]

5 hours ago, extremor said:

Well if I‘m not mistaken you need 3x  of wich one has to be 9(+) because you need the blood sacrifice trigger twice, right? But yes this synergies are awesome and you get a huge benefit from this. Bokor are nuts. 

Wicked Doll giving the Bokors Adversary goes a long way there

[SEV]

Well we could sum this thread : Bokors are nuts...

I expect them to be nerfed in the next GG...

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Short answer - If you're planning on playing just Zoraida, then don't restrict yourself to just 1 faction

Indeed! Play the real inhabitants of Malifaux Gremlins and Neverborn! 

[Roadhouse]

Franc Toss (Bayou)
Size: 50 - Pool: 10
Leader:
  Zoraida
Hires:
  Gautraeux Bokor
  Gautraeux Bokor 2
  Lucky Effigy
    Effigy of Fate
  Alphonse LeBlanc
    Two Gremlins in a Ghillie Suit
  Francois LaCroix
References:
  Voodoo Doll
  Wanga Mojo Curse

So this was my thought for a Z Bayou list. You can give Alphonse a huge stack of Glowy T1, give Franc fast and a walk with Burn Out Obey, then have Alphonse yeet him up the table. Franc is an absolute murder machine and being 15" from where he started and Fast is quite the threat, then he's backed up by Alphonse with 6 Glowy. 

Z has lots of options because she enables a ton of stuff by multiplying AP. 

[SEV]

Alphonse is interesting as well... Might be better than Lenny if you plan is mostly to toss your own models. I'm not sure about the double Bokor (at this point I would go with Samy and put 12 cup on alphonse; you don't need 2 gremlins on him imo). 

Also, you don't have any real relay for EitN... This, in my limited experience, will limit Z impact on the game. 

I really like the SpawnMother since she helps with the Scheming. Juju is still probably your best anchor. 

A silurid could also replace the effigy. 

Maybe something like this :

Pool: 6
Leader:
  Zoraida
Hires:
  Gautraeux Bokor
  Silurid 
    Two Gremlins in a Ghillie Suit
  Francois LaCroix (I still prefer JuJu)
  Alphonse LeBlanc
    Twelve Cups of Coffee
  Sammy LaCroix
 

[Thatguy]

9 minutes ago, SEV said:

Juju is still probably your best anchor. 

Alphonse with 2 Gremlins could potentially get to SZ 5 to throw Juju upfield. 

Idk how useful that is but it's possible. 

 

Not that this helps Neverborn Zorida.

[SEV]

9 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Alphonse with 2 Gremlins could potentially get to SZ 5 to throw Juju upfield. 

Idk how useful that is but it's possible. 

 

Not that this helps Neverborn Zorida.

Yes. But in his list he didn't played Juju. So a size 4 Alphonse (after bonus) seems enough to me.

If you play juju, you might want to put 12 cup on him and 2 gremlins on alphonse. Load juju with focus (with a fast Samy that can be 6 focus T1) and toss him up. That could be scary.

[Scoffer]

14 minutes ago, SEV said:

If you play juju, you might want to put 12 cup on him and 2 gremlins on alphonse. Load juju with focus (with a fast Samy that can be 6 focus T1) and toss him up. That could be scary.

Juju is not the model to throw deep forward. Without two bokors healing him he melts like butter (and eats all your stones). DF3 = every attack hits.

[Roadhouse]

Not a Juju fan at all. Would much rather funnel AP through Emissary in NVB.

[MrPieChee]

14 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Juju is not the model to throw deep forward. Without two bokors healing him he melts like butter (and eats all your stones). DF3 = every attack hits.

I feel that if bokors get their likely nerf then JuJu is going to need a buff. I see lots of people on the fence about including JuJu or the spawn mother, which perhaps means they both need a buff irrespective of changes to bokors!

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

I feel that if bokors get their likely nerf then JuJu is going to need a buff. I see lots of people on the fence about including JuJu or the spawn mother, which perhaps means they both need a buff irrespective of changes to bokors!

Haha, this is true. Every time I say Juju is great, the context is always the assumption that there's a Bokor so there's three activations where Juju can heal up (Bokor's, Zoraida's, and Juju's).

[SEV]

7 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

I feel that if bokors get their likely nerf then JuJu is going to need a buff. I see lots of people on the fence about including JuJu or the spawn mother, which perhaps means they both need a buff irrespective of changes to bokors!

Juju need a healer to support him for sure. If Bokor get nerfed, it will be for it's insane cards drawing not it's healing. So Bokor will, most likely, still be a good support piece for Juju.

Juju is really good. Def 3 doesn't really matter on him. Just assume that 80% of the attack will hit him. With hard to wound a tone of hp, regen 3 (assuming you keep him in severe) and demise eternal your opponent need to dedicate a tone of resource to take him down. Obviously this will happen if he's on his own... But than you're either loosing or did a big blunder with his placement.

Juju his your anchor and relay for EitN. Put him around 10" form Z (so he can comeback with ambush + charge) with a Bokor within 8" and you'll dominate a huge area of the board because of EitN. Thank to planted root (the most important ability on its card) your opponent will have a hard time messing with this plan (and it's not like cutting LoS on a size 4 moss tower is easy)... obviously bonus point if you face a crew with a lot of WP attack since WP 7 is awesome. 

Anyway... if Someone at Wyrd want to give def 4 or even better armor +1 to Juju, I won't complain but it's not needed. 

Spawn Mother in also totally fine like this. For 8ss she's a great summoner. And when you're done producing the next generation, she has good Scheming potential (ambus + 6 inch move) and she can pack a punch...

I'm a fan obviously (she's in most of my Z list), but I honestly don't see why she would need a buff.

[Thatguy]

9 minutes ago, SEV said:

Spawn Mother in also totally fine like this. For 8ss she's a great summoner

She seems like an almost strictly worse version of The Sow to me. EitN on her and the gupps seems like the only reason to bring her. 

[SEV]

Just now, Thatguy said:

She seems like an almost strictly worse version of The Sow to me. EitN on her and the gupps seems like the only reason to bring her. 

That's a big reason! There's not much difference between the 2 imo (but I agree that the Sow is probably a little better against anything but a shooting crew). I think EitN is a big part of what make Z awesome. Spawnmother give you free relay (Gupp). 

 

[andorman]

This almost entirely depends on the value you're getting off of stealth.  In some games, it's the best ability on the card, and other matchups it does literal nothing.

Being a hench is also incredibly relevant on a flanker/skirmish piece.

[Roadhouse]

IR on Spawn Mother shouldn't be over looked. The ability to charge through models to smack something when they kill one of your guys is huge. Severe 6 is also no joke, especially on a model that can stone for Puncture.