Red Joker cheated on damage

[Azahul]

Just to confirm this, since it seems pretty clear on paper, does the Red Joker only do Severe +1 damage if it's flipped for the damage flip, and otherwise is just Severe? The wording in the rulebook (specifically the page 9 sidebar) says that the Red Joker counts for Severe +1 if it "comes up" in a variable flip. That's not super precise language, to be fair, but my understanding is that cheated isn't flipped so it wouldn't count if the Joker is cheated in for damage.

[Scoffer]

It's severe+1 anyway.

[Azahul]

5 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

It's severe+1 anyway.

Is there a logic to that?

[Nathan Sells]

9 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Is there a logic to that?

It still "comes up" in the damage flip, you've just forced it to do so.

[Azahul]

Isn't there usually a distinction between flipped and cheated?

[Nathan Sells]

9 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Isn't there usually a distinction between flipped and cheated?

Sometimes there is, but, in this case, the rules don't specify "flipped" it just has to be in play. "Comes up" is definitely not the most precise wording, but I'd argue it does not proclude cheating; and more importantly, I've never seen it played another way. 

[Harlekin]

5 hours ago, Azahul said:

"comes up"

...is a more general term than "is flipped" or "is cheated". 
I consider it very precise language as it doesn't mention one _or_ the other terms but (can be read as:) includes both. 

[Azahul]

Cheers guys, good to know I've been playing it correctly 

[solkan]

You can stop arguing about "comes up" if you turn to the damage flip rules (pdf page 24):

Quote

When flipping for damage, if a Joker is flipped or Cheated, it has the following effects:

• Black Joker: the damaged model suffers no damage and the Action does not generate any B (if applicable).
• Red Joker: the damaged model suffers the indicated Severe damage value +1.

Note "is flipped or Cheated".

[regleant]

My group looked into this same issue and came to the conclusion that cheating Red Joker is NOT "flipped", so it does not get the Severe +1. Specifically in the rules on Page 9:

"If the Red Joker is flipped in an opposed duel,
the opposing model may not Cheat Fate. If
it comes up in a variable flip that involves
numbers (such as damage or healing flips), the
Red Joker does Severe +1."

So each reference to the Red Joker is a "flip", which means not cheated.

 

Thanks Solkan. Apparently different pages of the rule book have different rules.  

[santaclaws01]

Just now, regleant said:

My group looked into this same issue and came to the conclusion that cheating Red Joker is NOT "flipped", so it does not get the Severe +1. Specifically in the rules on Page 9:

"If the Red Joker is flipped in an opposed duel,
the opposing model may not Cheat Fate. If
it comes up in a variable flip that involves
numbers (such as damage or healing flips), the
Red Joker does Severe +1."

So each reference to the Red Joker is a "flip", which means not cheated.

There's a reason it says flipped in an opposed duel, but does not say flipped in a variable flip.

Also, this is what a variable flip is.

 

Quote

Variable Profiles
Some game effects use variable profiles (such as 1/2/3) to determine their result. Variable profiles are always divided into three segments: Weak/Moderate/Severe, and which segment is used is determined by the result of a card flip. The value of the flipped card determines which of the variable profiles is used: • 0 to 5: Weak • 6 to 10: Moderate • 11 to 14: Severe Some game effects may cause a variable flip based on a value other than a card flip, effects such as these will clarify what card is used to determine the value of the variable flip.

And then there's also the fact that the rulebook explicitly says that if the red joker is flipped or cheated on a damage flip then it deals severe +1, as @solkan quoted.