Thoughts on tackling The First Mate?

[Faceface]

Opponent used him in my last game brilliantly, it's the second I've poured a ton of resource into trying get him, and he's still gone on to score game winning points. I don't feel like you can ignore him, since he's such a scorer - but how on earth do you get enough dmg on him to kill him?

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Faceface said:

Opponent used him in my last game brilliantly, it's the second I've poured a ton of resource into trying get him, and he's still gone on to score game winning points. I don't feel like you can ignore him, since he's such a scorer - but how on earth do you get enough dmg on him to kill him?

Any masters in particular that you play? That'll help narrow it down

[Maniacal_cackle]

My thoughts from elsewhere:

In general, he is super hard to kill and it is good if you can avoid having to kill him by contolling an area rather than killing him directly (for example, an Ashigaru on a Symbol of authority, summoned by Toshiro).

If you are going for the kill, just having lots of mobile models that can hit hard can grind him down. Archie isn't great because he can't flurry him easily.

Another thing you can do is 'pin' him, so he can't move with Butterfly jump. When I kill him, this is usually how I do it. You can box him in with multiple models before you hit him, or you can use Carrion Emissary with coffins to stop him moving away, or you can use Dead Rider to Reap him into a pinned position.

[Adran]

13 minutes ago, Faceface said:

Opponent used him in my last game brilliantly, it's the second I've poured a ton of resource into trying get him, and he's still gone on to score game winning points. I don't feel like you can ignore him, since he's such a scorer - but how on earth do you get enough dmg on him to kill him?

Sometimes resources are just better spent on denial rather than killing. You say you poured a load of resources into trying to kill him, and failed and he still scored game winning points. Would they have been game winning if you had instead poured that effort into scoring your own points? Would he have been able to score more points if you hadn't been after him? (If he was going to score 4 points if left alone, and instead after you used a 10ss model to harass him all game he only scored 3, is probably not an efficient use of that 10 ss for you, if you could have used it else where to score/deny 2 points)

Know when you have a way to kill him, and when you don't. And if you don't have a good way to kill him, its often not worth trying lots of bad ways, becasue you end up helping him more than hindering. Sometime walking next to him is a better option than charging him, because he will get the 3" butterfly jump after the charge freeing him from engagement and moving him somewhere, where if you just stand next to him, he can only drop 1 marker next turn rather than 2.  

Some options include - saving a model to just follow him around and remove the markers he drops. 

Stunned. This will make him unhappy

Slow

Try and pick schemes where you don't need markers. If you don't drop a marker he can't use free loot or carry the loot. 

(I tend to find when I have him down on the table, my opponent only drops scheme markers that are going to score that turn, and, if possible, after he has been or out of his range). 

[Scoffer]

28 minutes ago, Faceface said:

Opponent used him in my last game brilliantly, it's the second I've poured a ton of resource into trying get him, and he's still gone on to score game winning points. I don't feel like you can ignore him, since he's such a scorer - but how on earth do you get enough dmg on him to kill him?

It was all about my crazy luck with damage prevention flips. He is not tanky at all, stones are his only protection.

Maybe you should have saved some cards to kill him with Student of Viscera turn 3 or finish him with Valedictorian instead of trying to kill Francois.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

It was all about my crazy luck with damage prevention flips. He is not tanky at all, stones are his only protection.

Maybe you should have saved some cards to kill him with Student of Viscera turn 3 or finish him with Valedictorian instead of trying to kill Francois.

To be fair, with 5 stones for protection, you're going to have to do an extra ~10 damage to take him down. Henchmen by their very nature are difficult to kill if the opponent is willing to use stones for him xD

[Scoffer]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To be fair, with 5 stones for protection, you're going to have to do an extra ~10 damage to take him down. Henchmen by their very nature are difficult to kill if the opponent is willing to use stones for him xD

Well, you don't have 5 stones to waste on saving him most of time. Zipp needs stones for himself, the First Mate needs stones to leap, so it's more like 2-3 stones for prevention. And after that you have no stones and lose your master ( That's how it happens in my games.

 

 

[Thatguy]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

Sometimes resources are just better spent on denial rather than killing.

This would be my advice. First Mate is a 9ss scheme runner. 

Stealth and Butterfly jump along with leap and ss usage make him very hard to pin down to kill. Very few models are fast enough to run him down when he bolts. 

Putting 4-5 damage on him with a focused attack can be worth it to make the player worry about using him to "agressively" run schemes. But unless you have model with an 18" threat range First Mate will likely get away once his wounds are low. Even if you do have a model capable of hunting First Mate down it's often not going to be worth it to send your expensive Rider/Fast Mad Dog/whatever two or more turns out of the action to try and kill him. 

I think "ignore him and hope he doesn't score too many points" is not really fruitful advice. If I was dedicated to taking him out, you have to do it with big damage. 5-6 damage at a time hopefully. Even if he stones for prevention you're putting 3 wounds on a 9 wound model. The hard part is doing that three times before he can respond and get away. If you manage it is probably because you tagged him once it twice then got initiative, or he made an error and placed First Mate close to one or more big beaters. 

@Faceface What crew do you normally run? 

 

 

 

[Faceface]

@Thatguy - in this match up I was playing Von Schtook, against @Scofferwith Zipp. The Strat was Corrupted Leylines. 

As he's said, he did have a bit of luck, but I also made some silly moves (still a fairly newish player).

I think in this game I could have played for denial more - I went quite aggressive turn 1, but didn't actually manage to land successfully co-ordinated attacks; he always slipped through my fingers! With Transmortis ability to cover huge distance in one turn, I could have done a bit more waiting for him to come to me - then leaping on over-extended models or slipping past him score the strat. 

It was a close game, 7 v 5 to Zipp, so I didn't do too badly - but definitely felt like I didn't have a handle on things. 

[Thatguy]

Of any Ressers, Transmortis is probably the best equipped to deal with Zipp and First Mate. It sounds like it was mostly luck and being new to the game. 

You'll get him next time. 

[SEV]

Give him the ball, that will shut his leaping down 😀.

If you cover the key area of the Board, it will be hard for TFM to go there to scheme (especially if he's low on life from a previous attack). 

Boxing him is not that easy thoug. I think you have to play "zone" against him. I'll will either have to be careful (so less impact on the game) or expose him at one point or another (you won't probably have more than 1 attack a turn on him, but that fine). 

Also be careful, because with 2 gremlins I become near unkillable. But he's a 11ss model at this point. 

If you manage to put negative condition on him (stun, slow, stager). It's good to reduce his effectiveness in a specific turn. 

Finally in the late game, if you put enough pressure on the stone stack and on my hand, I might not be able to leap away and/or prevent a big attack.

So, patience against him. Denied him/weaken him early, go for the kill later if you have an opportunity 

[touchdown]

If you can slow and/or stun First Mate, that is a good consolation prize to killing him. Otherwise play the Viks and Dragon's Bite him to death