Lucius a potential cadmus answer?

[SEV]

Emissary seems a problem for Lulu... But if you attack you opponent hand hard enough, take the hit has a real cost (discarding a card).

Also, obeying him at WP 5 to put him out of position can also work (or hitting his own model since his melee attack is fine; also itimidating roar can mess with his bubble).

Also, not to deal with the Emissary specifically, but bringing a Riffleman ook could maybe work to shoot the annoying E&E from a safe distance (with Lawyers to transform the in to machine gun + Lucius own hidden sniper if might be enough fire power to control them. Then, if the scheme pool is right you can safely scheme far away from the cadmus bubble).

That would be hilarious that one of the weaker master in the game become a counter pick to the most OP one (but our own boogeyman @Plaagwill come and crush this dream soon enough, I'm sure 😀). 

[Adran]

40 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

I think We Are Legion shuts that down quite well. Between shielded and We Are Legion, they really need to be bunched up to do any significant dmg.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here, unless this was a comment related to the area damage. (In which case I do agree small amounts of area damage don't do much until you get models down to their last few wounds when it suddenly really matters, but you need to be looking in the region of 50-80 damage dealt before it really matters, which is huge)

Greed does damage based on the number of friendly's nearby, so if they are bunched up it could get pretty high (In the games I've played, when greed wasn't there, the clump has typically been 5-8 models large, so Uncheck avarice on the emissary or Meredith (since I find these are the two models most likely to be in the centre of the clump) could be doing 4-7 damage vs wp with st6 (So +1 stat). ( every model that is able to benefit from healing draught or Phalanx becomes extra damage). 

I very much doubt that you would get that much against a good player, but the threat of it is reducing the shielded and healing in the crew, which is a good thing. I don't know if its a good enough thing to make Greed a worthwhile pick, but it certainly ought to make Cadmus think twice.  

[andorman]

A good starting point on 'can this list fight nexus' is to answer the question 'can this list reliably deal >20 damage to htw models every turn'.  While the obey pressure is helpful in the AP trade, without answering that core question, it seems like a difficult task to overcome the ruthless efficiency of the crypto oriented crews.

[SEV]

1 minute ago, andorman said:

A good starting point on 'can this list fight nexus' is to answer the question 'can this list reliably deal >20 damage to htw models every turn'.  While the obey pressure is helpful in the AP trade, without answering that core question, it seems like a difficult task to overcome the ruthless efficiency of the crypto oriented crews.

Is it? I'm not sure about this assumption. What about a list dedicated to pest control (killin E&E and nests) and mobility (to avoid the meat grinding bubble). 

Right now, the idea to fight fire with fire doesn't seems to work super well for the non-cadmus crew... But maybe that's all guild can do ?

[andorman]

1 minute ago, SEV said:

Is it? I'm not sure about this assumption. What about a list dedicated to pest control (killin E&E and nests) and mobility (to avoid the meat grinding bubble). 

Right now, the idea to fight fire with fire doesn't seems to work super well for the non-cadmus crew... But maybe that's all guild can do ?

The three lists I've seen have any success into cadmus are:
von Schtook: huge damage output, similar ruthless efficiency, convert their summons into your summons
Dreamer: large amounts of WP based damage and efficient summoner
Sonia: Spelleater based hand control from berserker husk's built in trigger, huge amounts of area damage at range

Cadmus has a deceptively large amount of mobility that make control soft control strategies difficult if not paired with sufficient damage output to control the swarm.

[admiralvorkraft]

1 hour ago, Dark Reaper said:

Didn't think about that, sorry. When he cheats the Red Joker, I'll just play my RJ+1 and be fine. 

If you're cheating Red to dodge an obey that's cool with me. Heck if you're holding cards to dodge obeys period then I'm fine with it. 

[4thstringer]

Has anyone played dita into it?  That's the other one I can think of, but I'm skeptical.

[ElPuto]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

Has anyone played dita into it?  That's the other one I can think of, but I'm skeptical.

I'd like to play her and Lucius (and maybe Basse) into Nexus. Let's see if I can arrange some games soon.

[admiralvorkraft]

'Dita is hard because she's under a ton of hand pressure just to make her mechanics work...

She does waste the nests pretty well and I think she should be able to pen Nexus in a bit. I'd tech in the Jury for the WP targeting stuff. 

[ElPuto]

The hard task for Lucius is surviving shockwaves from Meredith and Ngaatoro's Obey. Having a mediocre Mv (Agent and DP aside), that stuff hurts a lot.

[admiralvorkraft]

The obey isn't hugely concerning - the crew has decent wp and intimidating authority means he's either stoning for positives or the mask but not both. 

The shockwave is just something you have to factor into your resource management, and if Stanley is breaking the bubble to throw flasks you can probably scalpel her out...

[Dark Reaper]

He will obey Meredith to spam more simple duels, is what he is saying.

[admiralvorkraft]

6 hours ago, Dark Reaper said:

He will obey Meredith to spam more simple duels, is what he is saying.

Oh, sure. And bully is a thing. 

Again, her threat range from the bubble is ~11" which isn't a problem to play around and if she pops out of the bubble then I can kill her - flush with cash or no. She's stat 5, 7 wounds no tech. 

[Higgybeans]

On 3/24/2021 at 1:46 PM, Adran said:

Greed does damage based on the number of friendly's nearby, so if they are bunched up it could get pretty high (In the games I've played, when greed wasn't there, the clump has typically been 5-8 models large, so Uncheck avarice on the emissary or Meredith (since I find these are the two models most likely to be in the centre of the clump) could be doing 4-7 damage vs wp with st6 (So +1 stat). ( every model that is able to benefit from healing draught or Phalanx becomes extra damage). 

"Target suggers damage equal to the number of enemy models within 3 of itself."

I thought that means Greed does damage based on the number of nearby enemy models to the target? Or is it enemies of greed?

[4thstringer]

6 minutes ago, Higgybeans said:

"Target suggers damage equal to the number of enemy models within 3 of itself."

I thought that means Greed does damage based on the number of nearby enemy models to the target? Or is it enemies of greed?

Enemies of greed.  I struggled with this too.

[Higgybeans]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

Enemies of greed.  I struggled with this too.

I've been using to wrong for years  haha. So has my friend who quite often plays The Crossroads as a group!

[Adran]

Friends And enemies are always from the point of view of the card it's written on. 

[Angelshard]

In tournament play I'd go for Basse, focus on keeping cadmus bunched up and count on winning 2/3-1 when the game ends after turn three. From the games I've tried Cadmus takes ages per turn. Especially if shockwaves starts hitting the crew. 

I'd like to try a lucius, doppel, agent and pappa list and throw an unholy amount of movement tests against them. 

[Gaston]

I've played Basse into Cadmus a lot.

• The traps can be very crucial, as you can keep the Nests engaged until you can deal with them thanks to from the Shadows. REMEMBER TO NOT DEPLOY 4" FROM YOUR DEPLOYMENT ZONE HOWEVER!!! 3.99" MAX.
• The crew does enough damage. The crew also brings a butt ton of healing.
• Caught in the Qucksand picks on Mv, not Def, good for going for Emissary. Injured doesn't hurt either, and, terrain depending, the places can be brutal as well.
• Additionally, there's a fair amount that attacks movement, which is a traditionally lower end stat in ES in general. With the Staggered that the Frontier keyword can hand out, you can prevent Cadmus from teleporting models around. Don't forget Staggered does more than just reduce the Mv stat.
• A big part of my games into the Husks are Swarm of Mites, where they try to run in and pulse out damage, Injured, and Parasites. Riot Gear on No Prisoners is a fairly effective counter pick upgrade to this strategy. It's also useful with Frontier so that you can use your own models to make terrain hazardous. In theory you can put it on a Pathfinder, summon a trap, and pop it over with the Catch Them! but......Idk in practice on that one. If you do it, you're a BAMF in my book though.
• Frontier has a huge deployment advantage on Cadmus with Home on the Range. This lets you scheme more effectively, but also allows you to pick strategies and game plans to stretch the field, making it more difficult on Cadmus. Don't play to the center.
• You have Austringers who ignore LOS, and can pick on those softer models from safe locations very effectively.
• The Sand Worm is also an interesting piece into the match up, where he can pop up with Terror from Below, get into some of those backline models. Thrash trigger also allows him to remove web markers, limiting summoning and mobility. Understand however, he is likely to die after he pops up, given the amount of WP based attacks some of the Cadmus crews build for (Spelleater, Archivist for example). 
• Emissary stops Will of Cadmus cold (crowd control).
• Overall, engage from range, not melee. Make them spend AP coming to you.
• Bring Shielded (Lawyer! And he can Obey!). Cadmus pings, they don't have min 3 beaters, so damage reduction can be very useful. Witch Hunter keyword with Shielded is good for this too.
• Keep cards in your hand, even crappy ones. You need the discard to help stave off the parasite tokens. Basse's card draw (Claim the Bounty) is good for this too. As is the Lawyer, again.
• Going OOK, consider Jury (WP attack, errata to summons) and Alan Reid (Boring Conversation). Exorcist, Lone Marshal can now also one shot Husks from summoned Eyes and Ears, thanks errata! Kill them the smart way, not the hard way.

We have tools. And Frontier is good into more than just Cadmus when it comes to ES. English Ivan becomes English Ivan't. 

Its not easy, Cadmus wouldn't be top level otherwise, but we are far from helpless. We are the law!

[santaclaws01]

4 minutes ago, Gaston said:

Jury (WP attack, errata to summons)

Although do keep in mind that if you've got parasite tokens you're likely just dealing damage to yourself. And you want to get the activation order right so they don't just get healed/are now able to spread healing to the big guys.

[ElPuto]

32 minutes ago, Gaston said:

We have tools. And Frontier is good into more than just Cadmus when it comes to ES. English Ivan becomes English Ivan't.

How does Frontier counter DUA? Nice tips for the Nexus matchup btw.

[4thstringer]

43 minutes ago, ElPuto said:

How does Frontier counter DUA? Nice tips for the Nexus matchup btw.

Both basse and the sandworm can ruin the shadow markers, which makes Ivan much more vulnerable.  Pathfinders ignore concealment.   Austringers ignore concealment. Rough riders have a plus to attack flips. And only reichart is wp 6 so less brocken risk.

I've even considered putting some expert marksman on models, though I'm not sure about that one.

Ninja edit: among the willows trigger can be used to make concealing terrain around umbra models into hazardous they can't escape.

[Gaston]

To tag onto @4thstringer:

Your only WP 6 model is Reichart. Leave him at home. No more Broken Ghost summoning. Without the Brocken, all of a sudden Dua struggles versus Armor and Damage reduction which....psst...Guild got. 

Instead of Rechiart consider two models: Peacekeeper and Guardian. The Peacekeeper is a min 3 with 3-4 attacks, Hard to Wound, Armor +2. It is quite undervalued. If you are worried about Mv 4, use Kick Up, poke it with Quicksand, and teleport it up. That shit alone will nab ya like 5" of movement. You can also Baby Basse Bring It, and if it swings on her......I mean......oops? Now the Guardian is just dirty. Filthy. WP 4, Arm 2, min 3, things Dua hates. BUT!!! It has Take the Hit. Take the Hit specifies that it becomes the new target of the attack, ignoring LOS. Which means Ivan loses the concealment bonus from terrain, and now needs both to hit, a high crow, and a soul stone to summon anything. 

Both Guardian and Peacekeeper like scrap, which Traps provide.

Traps are dirty. They attack Mv (remember, ES has lower than Average Mv, usually 5 or worse; Ivan and Moordrake are actually Mv 4). Hit them with Staggered. It turns of moving outside of activation, so Antiluminal Bridge, gone. And so on. Also takes Ivan down to Stat 2 vs Caught in Quicksand having a Stat 7 and Ignoring Concealment. If you do this, stack Injured, bring Austringers, etc, it puts an IMMENSE amount of pressure on Ivan.

Hitting a model with Among the Willows makes it into Hazardous to Ivan's crew. 

Everything ignores Concealment, Pathfinder, Austringer. 

Good amount of marker removal for Guild, esp when it is just random incidental removal like Thrash. Eva hates this, btw. 

[Thatguy]

41 minutes ago, Gaston said:

Take the Hit specifies that it becomes the new target of the attack, ignoring LOS. Which means Ivan loses the concealment bonus from terrain

This is great, I love it. 

[ElPuto]

Are you sure about that "ignoring LoS" means that he loses the concealment bonus?