Anyone try English Ivan as a second master with McCabe?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I was just thinking last night that both Brocken Spectre and Daeva seem nuts with McCabe, but probably aren't quite worth their cost. Especially if they're starting in a deployment zone and have to trudge across the board.

But then I remembered Ivan can just summon stuff in position. Granted, he doesn't have his keyword to support him, but his keyword is generally a bit weak anyway. Friendly Fire and possibly Distracted should be easy to come by, and also the opponent won't necessarily build their list to block Ivan's willpower summons, so it may be even easier to get those summons out.

Just thinking about a summoned Brocken Spectre being given fast and then doing 6 damage with its Hallowed Glory pulse seems super sweet. Anyone tried it?

Granted, you could totally do it in the other direction too (Ivan hiring McCabe + Luna), but that has less of a surprise factor. But I suppose I wonder if anyone has tried that as well?

[DonQOT]

I haven't tried this, I've never tried double master actually. But I'll add it to the list of things I would like to.

I think you are right about Ivan making a good surprise inclusion given how strong and relatively self sufficient he is.

What makes you think to pair him with McCabe specifically, though? Just to get the Umbra summons without the tax?

Edit: I just realized you said that in your opening paragraph. Dummy, thy name is Don.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, DonQOT said:

I haven't tried this, I've never tried double master actually. But I'll add it to the list of things I would like to.

I think you are right about Ivan making a good surprise inclusion given how strong and relatively self sufficient he is.

What makes you think to pair him with McCabe specifically, though? Just to get the Umbra summons without the tax?

Yeah, the umbra minions pair really well with McCabe anyway, but they just don't quite seem worth the cost. Whereas Ivan is probably one of the best second masters in the faction (I would guess?) and providing those summons with the incidental synergies seems amazing. Like if you get a fast Brocken activating, that's a ridiculous amount of damage it is about to put out.

[respekt]

I have played McCabe second with Ivan. I think that is probably the better route as both totems feel essential and luna is cheaper. It will probably have legs in the future when your opponent tries to deny brocken summons to prevent you from killing armored models, but then McCabe just has swords lol. I am not sure what you are getting from surprise Ivan other than extra concealment? You mentioned that people won't hire to deny the summons, but I personally feel like that strategy won't age well, it seems like a huge list concession to me. Second McCabe can really take the wind out of some strategies that counter Ivan though. As my two factions are outcasts and exs, I can speak to that matchup with more certainty. I don't think changing any outcast list to bring less than wp 5 will make a huge difference, but hiring arik into crews like levi is a way more effective bandaid. If you hire second master McCabe, Arik is dead on t2 or 3. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

20 minutes ago, respekt said:

I have played McCabe second with Ivan. I think that is probably the better route as both totems feel essential and luna is cheaper. It will probably have legs in the future when your opponent tries to deny brocken summons to prevent you from killing armored models, but then McCabe just has swords lol. I am not sure what you are getting from surprise Ivan other than extra concealment? You mentioned that people won't hire to deny the summons, but I personally feel like that strategy won't age well, it seems like a huge list concession to me. Second McCabe can really take the wind out of some strategies that counter Ivan though. As my two factions are outcasts and exs, I can speak to that matchup with more certainty. I don't think changing any outcast list to bring less than wp 5 will make a huge difference, but hiring arik into crews like levi is a way more effective bandaid. If you hire second master McCabe, Arik is dead on t2 or 3. 

I reckon it is pretty easy to craft a list to make it awkward for Ivan. Both games I've played against him, he has only gotten 2 useful summons over the course of the game (and I didn't use Anna Lovelace, so I hope to get that number down next time 😜 )

For example, I used this list the first game:

• Molly & Machine
• Dead Rider
• Archie
• Yin
• Nurse
• Crooligan
• Crooligan

Which does not give him a lot of useful ways to summon, especially since my crew was set up to punish him for coming forward (Dead Rider reap + Molly irreducible damage was one sure-death combo for example).

I couldn't build my crew to counter Ivan if I didn't know he was coming.

[respekt]

I guess my read is that ivan opponents are trying too hard to deny brocken and ivan players are trying too hard to get out brocken. I think over time ivan opponents will realize it is rarely worth too much tech the same way people were trying too hard to deny dreamer summons at the beginning of 3. I definitely think you are buying something valuable with out of keyword ivan. I'm just unsure if the surprise is gonna be worth the stones (esp if you are hiring mordrake). I think you could find a matchup where the staggered element of ivan's trigger might break it for mccabe tho. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

28 minutes ago, respekt said:

I guess my read is that ivan opponents are trying too hard to deny brocken and ivan players are trying too hard to get out brocken. I think over time ivan opponents will realize it is rarely worth too much tech the same way people were trying too hard to deny dreamer summons at the beginning of 3. I definitely think you are buying something valuable with out of keyword ivan. I'm just unsure if the surprise is gonna be worth the stones (esp if you are hiring mordrake). I think you could find a matchup where the staggered element of ivan's trigger might break it for mccabe tho. 

I think there's like three WP6 models in the faction I'd consider hiring into Molly anyway (not counting Anna for obvious reasons), so it isn't that big a sacrifice.

The other big consideration is building a list that's hard to kill for Ivan. The above list is full of models that are hard to kill against Ivan, whereas models like a Flesh Construct just melt to his min 3 beats. So I think the min 3 beats is definitely something worth building around.

[Thatguy]

On 3/18/2021 at 2:59 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

was just thinking last night that both Brocken Spectre and Daeva seem nuts with McCabe,

What did you think worked well with McCabe?

To me all the concealment seems like it messes with McCabe's Netgun. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

47 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

What did you think worked well with McCabe?

To me all the concealment seems like it messes with McCabe's Netgun. 

They're the best (ish) minions in the faction, so they are some of the best candidates for holding upgrades. Daeva can make scrap, and Spectre can do 6 unavoidable damage (no opposed duel) when fast. So that's some sweet additional synergies on top of being minions.

EDIT: in case it isn't clear, Daeva make scrap with mimic on Luna.