Let's beat Dreamer

[Vessien]

Hi there!

The Oyabun has been struggling recently to beat her nightmares and she has gathered her council looking for advice.

In other words, I have played 4 games as Misaki against Dreamer and I have lost all of them ^^'. So I am looking for advice 😃

Next weekend we are going to play the 5th game, below are the strategy, deployment and schemes:

My opponent usually plays in keyword and he recently aquired WW, Bandersnatch, Carver and Teddy so I guess he will play some of them.

Which tactics would you try?

[regleant]

I've done this match-up several times with mixed results. I will have to post more later. But if I were you, I'd take Research Mission and Breakthrough, because Misaki produces Shadow Markers AND the Evidence markers are dropped. That means you only need to place a Scheme marker strategically to score... not to mention the plethora of Corpse markers that will litter the board to make it even easier... 

 

Model-wise, I don't know what you have, but Ruthless is key. Bring Fuhatsu or another Ruthless Versatile if you can. Ototo is important, despite him being a great target to fail Willpower duals and bring in his summons. List what models you have access to, and we can go from there.

 

Last, Regeneration is irritating. When you decide to go in on a model, go all-in. Ensure it dies.

[Vessien]

Thank you for the advice on the schemes and tips, I was considering Spread Them Out instead of Breakthrough, but I guess it needs 2 more markers and reaching his deployment zone shouldn't be an issue.

As for the models I've got painted (we penalize with a free ss for the opposing crew for each unpainted model):

- Misaki crewbox

- Fuhatsu

- Archers 

- Terracota warriors 

And not painted (but I could get something done this week), I've got access to pretty much all versatiles, except for Samurais, Lone Swordsman, Yasunori and Lust. To the whole Last Blossom keyword, and to:

- Bill Algren

- Charm warders 

- Sun Quiang 

*I've got great plans for TT this year 😋

I have tried Fuhatsu and each time I've got better results, since I learnt to position and use him better. But my opponent has also learnt to focus him and his low wp. Any tips on adding survivavility to him? Maybe Trained Ninja? I've tried it to great success on Henchman Hardcore, but here there will be more threats ro him.

[regleant]

Because it's Flank deployment, and if you want to have a wild time testing some limits of the keyword, try:

• Misaki
• Shang
• Ototo w/ Trained Ninja
• Minako Rei
• Fuhatsu w/ Trained Ninja
• Crime Boss or Wokou Raider
• Tanuki
• 6 SS

Schemes: 

• Research Mission
• Breakthrough (super easy to achieve with Flank deployment vs. Spread them Out for Misaki)

I'm not saying it will win..., but it will give you a different perspective on the game. Individually, it will be:

Strategy includes:

• Focus more on the schemes, and less so on the strategy. Let him come to you, and spot-remove at your leisure. You do not want to let him get ahead on the Strategy, and each starting model will have a token. Henchman-heavy and many SS should make his life more difficult.
• Each turn, place a Shadow Marker 3" away from Minako Rei to consume and create Katashiro. These are optimal scheme runners who can get anywhere they need to be on the board and score. When they inevitably die, they will hopefully be on the opponent's side of the board creating Scrap markers. And hey, you have Research Mission and it just got a lot easier. Also note, creating Katashiro will help you with the 3-required models to score the End condition.
• Fuhatsu just wants to be a turret as much as he can. Try to situate him on Turn 1 and allow him to provide covering fire. 
• Since it is a Scheme-heavy pool, you know your opponent will want to drop Scheme markers. Having the Wokou Raider on your board means he can eat markers the opponents drop with Ever Changing Winds + Life of Crime. Or if you're feeling cheeky, use A New Horizon.
  • Alternatively, the Crime Boss has unexpected mobility with Shadow Markers and Thunders Territory. The Crime Boss has a higher Willpower and can do a little better up in the mix with Defensive tech. Also don't forget Protection Money...
• Ototo likes Trained Ninja so that he can actually make it to combat and murder things.
• Tanuki is the only model I put into every list. Healing is nice, as is passing out Focus.
• Misaki is great spot-removal or scheme runner, depending on what you need at any given time. Just remember with Minako consuming Shadow Markers, you'll have fewer options available throughout the game. On the plus side, if there are no Shadow Markers in play, she just appears in the deployment zone with no movement penalty, and FLANK gives lots of options.

 

Anyway, not saying that this list will win. But this is the type of craziness to think about as pieces come together. 6 SS is probably fewer than I would run (I have an SS addiction), and between summons and damage reduction, you may be able to remove Trained Ninja from someone and run 8.., but most people would call me crazy for that.

 

Lastly, don't forget about Trail of Gore. Kill Lord Chompy Bits as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

[Maogrim]

12 hours ago, Vessien said:

Thank you for the advice on the schemes and tips, I was considering Spread Them Out instead of Breakthrough, but I guess it needs 2 more markers and reaching his deployment zone shouldn't be an issue.

As for the models I've got painted (we penalize with a free ss for the opposing crew for each unpainted model):

- Misaki crewbox

- Fuhatsu

- Archers 

- Terracota warriors 

And not painted (but I could get something done this week), I've got access to pretty much all versatiles, except for Samurais, Lone Swordsman, Yasunori and Lust. To the whole Last Blossom keyword, and to:

- Bill Algren

- Charm warders 

- Sun Quiang 

*I've got great plans for TT this year 😋

I have tried Fuhatsu and each time I've got better results, since I learnt to position and use him better. But my opponent has also learnt to focus him and his low wp. Any tips on adding survivavility to him? Maybe Trained Ninja? I've tried it to great success on Henchman Hardcore, but here there will be more threats ro him.

Let me guess: You have Youko, Geishas and Chiyo as well, but you don't mention them because we don't talk about Mistress Hamasaki around here.. 😢

 

[Vessien]

6 hours ago, Maogrim said:

Let me guess: You have Youko, Geishas and Chiyo as well, but you don't mention them because we don't talk about Mistress Hamasaki around here.. 😢

 

Hehehe, we do not play double masters and I don't see me fitting a geisha OOK really. But the most important reason was Bill is mounted and started to paint and the rest are not (yet!). I am probably starting with Qi and Gong as soon as I end Last Blossom =D.

14 hours ago, regleant said:

Because it's Flank deployment, and if you want to have a wild time testing some limits of the keyword, try:

• Misaki
• Shang
• Ototo w/ Trained Ninja
• Minako Rei
• Fuhatsu w/ Trained Ninja
• Crime Boss or Wokou Raider
• Tanuki
• 6 SS

Schemes: 

• Research Mission
• Breakthrough (super easy to achieve with Flank deployment vs. Spread them Out for Misaki)

I'm not saying it will win..., but it will give you a different perspective on the game. Individually, it will be:

Strategy includes:

• Focus more on the schemes, and less so on the strategy. Let him come to you, and spot-remove at your leisure. You do not want to let him get ahead on the Strategy, and each starting model will have a token. Henchman-heavy and many SS should make his life more difficult.
• Each turn, place a Shadow Marker 3" away from Minako Rei to consume and create Katashiro. These are optimal scheme runners who can get anywhere they need to be on the board and score. When they inevitably die, they will hopefully be on the opponent's side of the board creating Scrap markers. And hey, you have Research Mission and it just got a lot easier. Also note, creating Katashiro will help you with the 3-required models to score the End condition.
• Fuhatsu just wants to be a turret as much as he can. Try to situate him on Turn 1 and allow him to provide covering fire. 
• Since it is a Scheme-heavy pool, you know your opponent will want to drop Scheme markers. Having the Wokou Raider on your board means he can eat markers the opponents drop with Ever Changing Winds + Life of Crime. Or if you're feeling cheeky, use A New Horizon.
  • Alternatively, the Crime Boss has unexpected mobility with Shadow Markers and Thunders Territory. The Crime Boss has a higher Willpower and can do a little better up in the mix with Defensive tech. Also don't forget Protection Money...
• Ototo likes Trained Ninja so that he can actually make it to combat and murder things.
• Tanuki is the only model I put into every list. Healing is nice, as is passing out Focus.
• Misaki is great spot-removal or scheme runner, depending on what you need at any given time. Just remember with Minako consuming Shadow Markers, you'll have fewer options available throughout the game. On the plus side, if there are no Shadow Markers in play, she just appears in the deployment zone with no movement penalty, and FLANK gives lots of options.

 

Anyway, not saying that this list will win. But this is the type of craziness to think about as pieces come together. 6 SS is probably fewer than I would run (I have an SS addiction), and between summons and damage reduction, you may be able to remove Trained Ninja from someone and run 8.., but most people would call me crazy for that.

 

Lastly, don't forget about Trail of Gore. Kill Lord Chompy Bits as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

Wow, that sounds like a solid plan all around and I like it. I am starting to paint the models today! Wish me luck with Real Life™ ^^'

Thank you very much for the advice, I will be digesting it through the week and probably come with questions, hehehe.

And I will write a batrep for sure to let you know how it goes.

[Maogrim]

@Vessien Looking forward to your battle report against that insufferable spawn(er) of nightmares. Bring honor to the Thunders! 

And I'm especially looking forward to your painted Qi & Gong.

[regleant]

4 hours ago, Vessien said:

Wow, that sounds like a solid plan all around and I like it. I am starting to paint the models today! Wish me luck with Real Life™ ^^'

Thank you very much for the advice, I will be digesting it through the week and probably come with questions, hehehe.

And I will write a batrep for sure to let you know how it goes.

Interested to read the batrep! Also I just started playing Youko and she is not easy to play effectively, but those Geishas are worth their 4 points!

 

That said, you didn't really say if you were new to the game, so I am going to assume you are and ramble on a bit more. 

 

Regarding strategy, I tend to be a much more 'macro' thinker, meaning my game plan is 90% settled once I approach the board and make the list. Only 10% of the plan is impacted by what actually transpires. For me, the prep-work and planning gives me something to work towards. Other people are much more flexible and micro-players, better able to move based on what's actually happening on the board and respond quickly to the opponent. That's not me.... what I lack in quick wit, I try to make up for in deep thought. You gotta' find what works better for you. 

 

In a pinch, don't forget Ototo can create Shadow markers. Don't forget Shadow Markers give Concealment to your models, which protects against all of those Willpower duals.

 

One last thing I forgot to mention - the majority of games I've won, I've done so after suffering more losses than my opponent. When things go awry, like Ototo wanders too far forward and gets eaten, keep focused on the goals you want to achieve instead of say, petty payback by having Misaski appear to kill the model that just killed Ototo. Killing models before they activate will get you further ahead, and put your models in safer places.

[touchdown]

a big take by surprise list would be 2 snipers and 2 samurai with trained ninja, and go all in on killing Dreamer round 1. It probably won't work if he's expecting it but if you've been losing a lot might make for a fun shakeup.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

8 hours ago, touchdown said:

a big take by surprise list would be 2 snipers and 2 samurai with trained ninja, and go all in on killing Dreamer round 1. It probably won't work if he's expecting it but if you've been losing a lot might make for a fun shakeup.

I think the more likely scenario is that he’ll give up a few cards for Protected by Nightmares, and you’ll lose a model or two in retaliation. 

[touchdown]

If he deploys dreamer within 6" of his deployment zone edge you can put 6 shots into him with those models. Not going to be able to discard the entire hand. With Flank deployment, Misaki should be able to counter attack anything that comes in, maybe even get there first and stop charges.

But yeah, it relies on the dreamer player not seeing the obvious danger. Although since you don't have to decide where those models deploy until you see everything else, you could react and be further back and play a normal game.

If you're losing a lot, sometimes it's worth just shaking things up, have some fun with it.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

Dreamer wouldn’t need to discard his entire hand.  I might expect he’d use 2-3 depending. I can’t think of a realistic reason a player with any experience would use Protected on each shot, since Incorpreal and soul stones are going to mean it’s likely to require several hits before Dreamer is really even threatened. 

[touchdown]

Just to be clear, I don't think it's a competitive move, but I think it could be a fun one

[regleant]

34 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Just to be clear, I don't think it's a competitive move, but I think it could be a fun one

I have done this once before, but not for the assassination angle this called out, It ended up happening against Titania, and I even forget if I won or lost. She basically stood in the middle of the board with her "Come at me, bro" toughness and I cried.

 

I did it with Minako Rei because Katashiro's mobility is phenomenal. 

 

That said, it DID throw my opponent off his game quite a bit to have my guns so far up the board.

 

[Vessien]

On 3/16/2021 at 5:47 PM, touchdown said:

a big take by surprise list would be 2 snipers and 2 samurai with trained ninja, and go all in on killing Dreamer round 1. It probably won't work if he's expecting it but if you've been losing a lot might make for a fun shakeup.

I guess I will give this one a try when the new samurai box is released here, sounds like fun every once in a while ^^', thanks!

[Vessien]

On 3/15/2021 at 11:09 PM, regleant said:

Interested to read the batrep! Also I just started playing Youko and she is not easy to play effectively, but those Geishas are worth their 4 points!

 

That said, you didn't really say if you were new to the game, so I am going to assume you are and ramble on a bit more. 

 

Regarding strategy, I tend to be a much more 'macro' thinker, meaning my game plan is 90% settled once I approach the board and make the list. Only 10% of the plan is impacted by what actually transpires. For me, the prep-work and planning gives me something to work towards. Other people are much more flexible and micro-players, better able to move based on what's actually happening on the board and respond quickly to the opponent. That's not me.... what I lack in quick wit, I try to make up for in deep thought. You gotta' find what works better for you. 

 

In a pinch, don't forget Ototo can create Shadow markers. Don't forget Shadow Markers give Concealment to your models, which protects against all of those Willpower duals.

 

One last thing I forgot to mention - the majority of games I've won, I've done so after suffering more losses than my opponent. When things go awry, like Ototo wanders too far forward and gets eaten, keep focused on the goals you want to achieve instead of say, petty payback by having Misaski appear to kill the model that just killed Ototo. Killing models before they activate will get you further ahead, and put your models in safer places.

Thank you for the tips, I am kind of new right, just have played 5 50SS games and a few of henchman hardcore (most of these went great with Fuhatsu on the lead, hehe).

I am preparing the minis to avoid giving him free SS =D

Got some cloggings in the airbrush - I am pretty inexperienced on this too - and got only the models primed and basecoat on the Tanuki.

Let's see if tomorrow I can advance a bit more!

[regleant]

4 minutes ago, Vessien said:

Thank you for the tips, I am kind of new right, just have played 5 50SS games and a few of henchman hardcore (most of these went great with Fuhatsu on the lead, hehe).

 

 

Do you have any other Miniature gaming experience? I played 40k long ago, and came from Warmachine and Guildball before picking up Malifaux, so it was pretty easy to adapt to. For someone without such experience, the learning curve is certainly much steeper - you should spend more time on getting the rules down, scoring points, and seeing what models can do, and less time focusing on winning a game. I think the heuristic is that new players lose the majority of their first 20 games.

[Vessien]

Yes, I have played warhammer fantasy, mordheim, some 40k and infinity. But all from a very casual point of view. Also, I am addicted to boardgames, hehe.

It is just that my opponent has the same experience than me and he has been adapting better to the game.

About the rules, you are just right, that's why we decided to go for HH so we could get a better grasp on the rules and make the games go faster and smoother.

Also, I've been reading lots of threads here and listening to several podcasts - specially those about Dreamer and Misaki -, but I just have not been able to pull out the recommended tactics against him. Such as going for the Dreamer (that Serene Counternance and the protected have proved to be a bit too hard) or killing daydreams. Actually I think the best advice to the date has been to focus on the game and scoring and to avoid the  attrition fight.

So I decided to come straigth to ask for help when we scheduled this game. And this far I am pretty motivated with your advice and I will try and pull out a win!

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

48 minutes ago, Vessien said:

Yes, I have played warhammer fantasy, mordheim, some 40k and infinity. But all from a very casual point of view. Also, I am addicted to boardgames, hehe.

It is just that my opponent has the same experience than me and he has been adapting better to the game.

About the rules, you are just right, that's why we decided to go for HH so we could get a better grasp on the rules and make the games go faster and smoother.

Also, I've been reading lots of threads here and listening to several podcasts - specially those about Dreamer and Misaki -, but I just have not been able to pull out the recommended tactics against him. Such as going for the Dreamer (that Serene Counternance and the protected have proved to be a bit too hard) or killing daydreams. Actually I think the best advice to the date has been to focus on the game and scoring and to avoid the  attrition fight.

So I decided to come straigth to ask for help when we scheduled this game. And this far I am pretty motivated with your advice and I will try and pull out a win!

 

You could try playing GG0 plant explosives against him, for example.

I quite like the tactic of securing your points and then engaging in battle to stop him securing his points, but that is a lot harder in GG1.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

6 hours ago, touchdown said:

Just to be clear, I don't think it's a competitive move, but I think it could be a fun one

I get it.  It’s a fun strategy to try.  I’ve done it myself.  It can even be competitive in certain matchups, but there’s some where I think it’s not really worth trying. I think Dreamer is one of those. 
 

It’s setup that’s definitely worth knowing about. 

[Vessien]

Here I come with the batrep. I will be posting it by turns to make it easier to discuss and for me to write it.

First of all, the crews:

Dreams

Misaki 

 

The deployment:

He was the attacker, so I chose the group containing: Carver, Serena, Chompi and Insidious.

After that, I deployed trying to stay out of early aggresions with Minako to the lower right behind the house. Fuhatsu was on the other side ready to fire, backed by the Tanuki.

To the left were Shang hidden behind the rocks (the small groups were heigh 2), and next to him was the raider - I think deploying him so far back was a mistake -.

And to the top left was Ototo, in the concealing of the tree and ready to prepare the storm. Misaki was in front to deploy the markers close to Minako.

The plan was to advance a little and focus with most of the crew and summon the 2 Katashiros with Minako to run the schemes through the right of the table.

I assumed he would have taken Leave the Mark, since the middle brawl is best for him. And I thought Breakthrough or Research mission would be the other one.

 

First turn to come next.

 

 

[Vessien]

Turn 1 was pretty much positioning, summoning and focusing from both parts.

Dreamer summoned an IM and Minako summoned 1 katashiro (the other one failed with a BJ).

 

Ototo, who was eager to test his new ninja training and went a bit forward preparing the storm that was to come.

(That focus helped more the Carver than Ototo).

The Carver and an insidious madness (IM now on) decided to jump onto him and start the melee. So, after a couple of hits, the summoned IM joined the party against the big guy with the stick And Ototo ended with 6HP.

After this, the storm came, but with Shang having to advance quite a bit, since there was no room due to the party being too crowded (poor plannig on my side and nice positioning by my opponent). Misaki commanded Ototo and he hit the Carver pretty hard, leaving him pretty low on HP. She herself charged the Carver, but did not manage to get over the insane stares of the terrifying creature - failing the duel and missing -.

This is how first turn ended:

[regleant]

Trying not to respond until I see the rest of the game.

[Vessien]

Let's go with turn 2 before my memory fades more, hehe.

I won the initiative and that sealed the Carver's fate. Fuhatsu took the first blood with his own particular insanity glimplse, here my opponent spent a card and a SS to try and protect him imposing a neg flip to the damage - a mistake recognized by him later -.

(The laugh of Fuhatsu echoing in the town)

After losing his new friend, the Dreamer was even angrier with Ototo and moved forward to draw a big target on him with Your Nightmare, placing an alp (edit: the stitched was on turn 3) and bringing Lord Chompi Bits right behind Ototo's back, leaving him at 2HP.

Ototo knew it was time for a tactical retreat and jumped out of the melee, to heal up to 6 health and run behind the house. However, Teddy was looking for someone to play with and left Ototo almost dead, at H2K this time.

Meanwhile, on the middle left part, Chompi, charged shang and devoured him (he was sooo overextended), engaging also the wokou raider, who escaped to the tree, only to be assaulted by the alp and the summoned IM.

In the middle of the town, Misaki tried to smash the Dreamer but ended up taking the daydream with the Dark Pact instead. She believed Ototo would be ok by himself, but moments later, the remaining IM charged through the house to take him out.

Serena, focusing on the mission, went next tot he middle of the table to score Leave Your Mark. In response, Minako summoned another katashiro to send it to attack the mistress. Whereas the other katashiro scored Breakthrough.

 

(End of turn 2, with the scheme markers already removed).

At the end of the turn, my opponent revealad also Take Prisoner on the raider. Which put the game at 1-2 favoring the Dreamer.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Vessien
Missed the death of Shang ^^'

[regleant]

Keep'm coming!