What about the little guys?

[esqulax]

I have several times made the exact point that Wyrd failed to consider the massive indirect nerf that pass tokens were to cheap models and therefore a lot of cheap models end up borderline useless in m3. 

Yes there are some that can be handy for scoring various schemes and objectives, but the cheap models that are focused on fighting are typically way worse than hiring an expensive model to get the job done. 

[Adran]

1 minute ago, esqulax said:

I have several times made the exact point that Wyrd failed to consider the massive indirect nerf that pass tokens were to cheap models and therefore a lot of cheap models end up borderline useless in m3. 

Yes there are some that can be handy for scoring various schemes and objectives, but the cheap models that are focused on fighting are typically way worse than hiring an expensive model to get the job done. 

I would say pass tokens were a direct and intended nerf to cheap models, nothing indirect about it. I can see that they failed to alter their value to still give them a use, but I think the biggest nerf to small models was indirect and was the Focus carries over turns. 

[esqulax]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would say pass tokens were a direct and intended nerf to cheap models, nothing indirect about it. I can see that they failed to alter their value to still give them a use, but I think the biggest nerf to small models was indirect and was the Focus carries over turns. 

We can argue semantics, but I would say that when a model is nerfed through a game rule, rather than anything on it's own card then it is an indirect nerf. The indirect nerf can then still be intended, which it was. But yes, they definitely didn't correctly buff cheap models to make up for it. 

I hadn't considered the focus change to affect cheap models, but you are right that it also did. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

One weird angle to consider is that when cheap models are good, they tend to be so good that you don't actually need to hire a lot of them. 

Like with Molly, 1 crooligan tends to get the job done (although can hire 2 if I need redundancy for whatever reason). Tried out Guild Lucius today, and a lawyer + changeling was so much support for the crew I didn't feel the need to spend any more than that. In Reva, a restless spirit + shieldbearer + bone pile covers so many bases I don't really need swarms of little folks beyond that.

Reva is the most I spend on small models, and that's only 16 stones of models. But they're so good they do everything I could ask of them.

The only thing small models tend to be quite bad at is combat, and it kind of makes sense they're not as good at combat as a ten stone beater, although even then there are exceptions (three Rotten Belles together can dish out 10+ damage in melee with the opponent on a minus flip).

There's an occasional exception (such as undergraduates, I hear some people would triple hire them), but if a minion is so strong you're actually taking multiples of it consistently it probably needs a nerf (as happened with undergraduates). The Rotten Belle case is an example where the right answer is either 0 or 3 I think because it is so synergy reliant.

So there's quite a fine line for Wyrd to be walking. I think probably the best thing to do to tackle it is to go hard on the synergy route, and make more models like Rotten Belles (although maybe a bit stronger on their own 😜 ).

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One weird angle to consider is that when cheap models are good, they tend to be so good that you don't actually need to hire a lot of them.

Is that a function of cheapness or a function of role? You don't generally want three support models or any other very specialized model. The only model that you'd want three of usually would be a generalist or a beater. I feel that this is a constant in skirmish games no matter the system. And both of those roles are some something that cheap models in Malifaux tend to fail at because they aren't durable enough for beaters nor good enough for generalists.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Math Mathonwy said:

Is that a function of cheapness or a function of role? You don't generally want three support models or any other very specialized model. The only model that you'd want three of usually would be a generalist or a beater. I feel that this is a constant in skirmish games no matter the system. And both of those roles are some something that cheap models in Malifaux tend to fail at because they aren't durable enough for beaters nor good enough for generalists.

Yeah, you could say it is a function of role, but you only need so many roles.

Either way you end up not needing more than 2-3 support cheap mods in most cases, so then you only need lots more cheap models for unusual crews or for beaters, which is tricky.

Whereas it sounds like in M2E, the clear role of cheap models was being a pass token, and it scaled really well so you could take many.

Roles don't scale as much in M3E?

[Angelshard]

Personally I would love if the cheaper minions, that comes in groups of three, got some synergy buffs. I loved the old Oxfordian mage upgrades that could only be given if you had three on the table, I also like pack mentality, I just don't think it does enough. But it sets a precedent for a design space that could easily be expanded. 

Give the packs a rule that increases their effectiveness for each other model of the same type on the table, or in proximity or whatever seems appropriate. 

Make it so that they still die easily, but your opponent is spending ap hunting down low cost models, and if they're ignored, they can do something effectivly. 

For example pistoleros could get a blast away ability so that whenever a pistolero shot at something every other pistolery within 6" could also shoot at the target. (not sure if it would be enough since their Stat and damage are abysmal). 

Something that would make me think about bringing a pack of low cost models. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

My last game was against a summoner that hired two Gaki, an Onryo, and Lost Love. It was brutal!

So I think with the summon changes, we may see more of a role for cheap models now that you can't just summon them for the same jobs.

[Thatguy]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So I think with the summon changes, we may see more of a role for cheap models now that you can't just summon them for the same jobs

Yeah. I'm hoping to get a Big Hat game in today. I'm going to bring at least one Banjoista, because it's the cheapest thing in keyword to do objectives.

[Mycellanious]

On 5/2/2021 at 11:03 AM, Thatguy said:

Yeah. I'm hoping to get a Big Hat game in today. I'm going to bring at least one Banjoista, because it's the cheapest thing in keyword to do objectives.

technically Bayou Gremlins are the cheapest thing that can do objectives...

[touchdown]

I keep thinking Bayou Gators would be really good with Big Hat since you can summon Criers to obey them.

[Angelshard]

Ond thing I'd really like to see is master requirement on other models. For example frontiersman could gain an ability called:

Trailblazer: if Basse is this crews leader, this model can remove one hazardous terrain marker, in base contact, at the end of a move action.

Giving models a master dependent upgrade could make them useful without letting other keywords benefit from it. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

Ond thing I'd really like to see is master requirement on other models. For example frontiersman could gain an ability called:

Trailblazer: if Basse is this crews leader, this model can remove one hazardous terrain marker, in base contact, at the end of a move action.

Giving models a master dependent upgrade could make them useful without letting other keywords benefit from it. 

I like it!

Only thing I'd change is make it so that it says "if this crew's leader shares a keyword with this model." That way you can re-use the ability, or if you have a henchman leader.

[Angelshard]

@Maniacal_cackle true, hadn't thought about henchman leaders, or giving models from different keywords the same ability. But it makes sense.

 

 

[Thatguy]

So, it looks like the new Kirai title did a lot for little guys. 

Seshin went from pretty pointless to, maybe you want to bring 5. I'm pretty excited that Kirai's Swirling Spirits does one of the things we talked about, which is reference SS cost instead of just station.