Winning the Center in GG1 is Overrated

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

2 of the five schemes require interacting in the enemy deployment zone, it just seems like there should be a somewhat equal option for movement that doesn't require a masters AP. In second edition it made a ton of sense because he would walk and give out a walk action, so an efficient 2 for 1. It made a ton of sense. Now that it's one for one, you really can't bring these cheaper models and expect to out efficiency someone , especially with pass tokens. So you have this situation where you have a ridiculous amount of dead models that can't compete with anything that's self sufficient like necropunks, silurids, and molly's little guys. There are just schemers that are so far and away better than things like, guild guard, changlings, terror tots, corrupted hounds when in theory they should be somewhat equal in there ability to move and interact, because that's the standard. Then you have other blessed crews that just magically get 50% or better movement on their minions. If anything it just makes the game stagnant. Nobody is gonna play with subpar models unfortunetly, it's just a unspoken rule in gaming.  There's just no way it's fair.  Leap just invalidates any other minion without it

But your Changling comes with 5 master AP over the course of the game (and in certain builds even more as it can be obeyed to Just like you in each activation), so whilst they might not be the best choice to get to the other side, they can make it such that one of your other models can do it easier. Its certainly possible to make a model take 10+ actions in a turn with your Lucius crew. That will get most models across the board and into the enemy deployment if thats what you want. It takes up a large amount of your actions doing this, as you are largely trading actions from your other models for action on that 1 model. But as a general rule 1 model doing 4 actions and 1 doing none is better than them each doing two actions. 

Yes, if you want to cross the board and interact, Leap is one of the best ways of doing it. (Its not the only way, ride with me and fly with me are also pretty good. Chain gang can be useful.) Movement effects are good and it helps your crew to have them. The Lucius efficiency isn't in action multiplication, when I see it the efficiency is in card draw. If you take 5 duels requiring a 7, you probably have to cheat 2 of those to succeed in all 5, but you ought to have drawn 5 cards doing it.   

I assume you're looking at a set game. If 2 of the 5 schemes require you to interact in the enemy deployment zone, and you think you can't then you look to the other 3 schemes. I typically build my list to be able to do at least 3 of the schemes from the list so its not obvious what I am doing. Although I'm having a moment and can't work out which two schemes you're talking about. Breakthrough and...?

 

 

[ooshawn]

even bringing in stuff like serena bowman and the rider, the saviors of the faction , it's still not equal

[ooshawn]

sabotage

[Adran]

Just now, ooshawn said:

sabotage

On a good board there ought to be a terrain piece that's just within 3" of the deployment and reaches 3-4" towards you, so your markers can be almost on the half way line and still score it. 

If the board doesn't have that I probably wouldn't look to it as a scheme unless I have a model that I know can do it

[touchdown]

2 hours ago, ooshawn said:

in theory if you are even on models, you don't even have to kill my changling, you just have to have movement 5 to force it to disengage and then it can't scheme for the rest of the game, you can just follow it around and stand behind it like some creepy uncle. 

How is your opponent scoring points if they're dedicating a model to chasing a 4 stone changeling around?

Also, you have obeys. The interact restriction is during activation. You can disengage, walk, end the activation, then obey the model to interact, or obey the model to disengage before it activates. On it's activation, do your interacting.

 

Regarding necropunks, I do think they're too good, but because of how hard they are to kill more than the leap. You're probably doing min damage thanks to hard to wound so even min 3 means 3 AP to kill one, or a way too significant investment of resources to get Armor Piercing or Critical Strike triggers. Although I play a lot against Bayou which may color my impression with their lack of armor ignoring.

[ooshawn]

it wouldn't be THAT bad if agent 46 had leap, but they can outrun my 9ss scheme runner hunter with very little effort, and then I'm dedicating 9ss to chase down and ultimately probably fail to kill that necropunk due to the reasons you listed. Ultimately for two necropunks running up opposing sides of the board, it's absurdly hard to stop them and still score your own points

[ooshawn]

Also to your point about chasing the changling around. I guess I should address that. the crew as we all know is very squishy, and it's main defense is pitching a card to put you on  a negative attack. So focus gets around that, and also makes it very likely to hit moderate or severe, so your not gonna just tank the enemy team. You will fall behind in models, which then allows any models of the opponents choosing to play grab-ass with my scheme runner. 

[ooshawn]

archie or the valedictorian or the nothing beast, don't care about negative flips on your investigator/lawyer/master, they will just focus and throw down a severe  two times and kill your model 

[ShinChan]

1 minute ago, ooshawn said:

archie or the valedictorian or the nothing beast, don't care about negative flips on your investigator/lawyer/master, they will just focus and throw down a severe  two times and kill your model 

Archie will care, since he cannot gain focus

[ooshawn]

okay bad example, out of any of the probably 30 models that are immeasurable better than agent 46. the point is that you're crew is gonna shrink more often than not

[ooshawn]

and also archie can give himself a built in + flip to hit, which nullifies the ability completely

[ooshawn]

But the main point is that if you have archie on your team, you also have a rogue necromancy with 2-3 focus on it, which will kill anything in my crew in one activation with no counterplay, maybe even lucius

[extremor]

@ooshawn pewwww. you read very frustrated. even though I think this aint the right place to have a Lucius/leap discussion I would like to cool down this frustration a bit. 

1. changelings cant be compared to necropunks. they are way too different. changelings are no cheap and fast schemerunners. they obviously havent been meant for that. they are designed for other purpose(s): changelings are an effective MASTER-AP! you use just like you to issue command lucius himself. A 4ss minion that generate an Master AP is awesome. so every changeling activation gives you at least 1 card if you use lucius to issue another model afterwards... so you can use that chageling AP to activate your important models like alan/agent/lawyer etc and draw. then if you bring agent/doppel you can copy just like you with mimic. it may not look very efficient BUT you can swap AP to places they are needed - thats good imho. furthermore they have stealth and disguised - 2 strong defensive abilities that keep em safe if you stay away from the enemy half. 

2. i  respectfuly disagree - lucius main defense aint intimidating authorities. its placement and handsculpting. i.a. is too easyly countered. Focus is the best way to do so since a lot of crews hand out focus like candy.

3. I also think lucius is kind of a deny-master. in my games with him I rarely score 7-8 VP. but I deny a lot of pionts to my opponent to win matches. maybe thats why he aint top tier...??    also: the few models I kill in a match with his crew have to make a real difference!!! otherwise i lose! I dont blindly charge in or widely spread your crew around the whole board (If I want that I play Collodi or Dreamer).

4. to me the OOK/Versatile saviours of the day in a lucius crew are: Angel Eyes, Mature Nephilim, BBS, Vasilisa&Dolls-->Stiched    then come Serena and Rider

5. you cant field lucius in every strat/scheme. he is special

 

BUT: I get your frustration about the keyword as a whole. there are quite some powerhouses out there and lucius aint one of them. on top of that he is hard to play... and thats why I love him so much!!

 

note that I am an average player and no top tourney player.

[ooshawn]

haha I agree going back and reading. Yeah.... I can get really fixated on stuff + i'm already socially clumsy lol

1. I didn't even think to try that, it's very insightful response and I'll give that a shot.

2. I agree.

3.  Just kind of further illustrates my point of view that he needs just a little baby boost in model movement capability. Maybe give him a little more range on his issue command to be able to push those scheme runners where they need to go. 16/18 inches vs 12 maybe?  to me this could possibly fix all his issues...possibly.

4. I'll give that a shot.

5. I promise I will field lucius in every scheme/strat, even when it's to my detriment. I'm hard headed like that

Thanks for your thoughtful/helpful response

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

3.  Just kind of further illustrates my point of view that he needs just a little baby boost in model movement capability. Maybe give him a little more range on his issue command to be able to push those scheme runners where they need to go. 16/18 inches vs 12 maybe?  to me this could possibly fix all his issues...possibly.

Lucius is designed to chain obeys.

If you have a model 12 inches from Lucius, Lucius can issue command to that model to obey something else, effectively giving him a ~24" range that can bend around corners.

So part of it may be that you haven't experienced full power Lucius yet. He has a lot of problems, but getting control to the part of the board he needs isn't one of them as far as I understand it.

Squishy models? Yeah, sure, that can be an issue xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

On the topic of the centre, I dont' know if anyone has mentioned 'sieging' the centre, but it can be quite good.

A Rogue Necromancy spewing Projectile Vomit into the Centre can swing a game. It's so ridiculous to just throw AOE conditions into the centre. Crews that pile into the centre seem especially vulnerable to AOE.

[Alcathous]

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

On the topic of the centre, I dont' know if anyone has mentioned 'sieging' the centre, but it can be quite good.

A Rogue Necromancy spewing Projectile Vomit into the Centre can swing a game. It's so ridiculous to just throw AOE conditions into the centre. Crews that pile into the centre seem especially vulnerable to AOE.

Yesss. Artillary Euripides is my favorite for this. Euri, Gigants, Emissary for stagger, hazardous, forced movement, severe, blasts, and shockwaves from 8" out. Paired with cyclops and the primordial magic for a little range scheme control.

[extremor]

17 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

On the topic of the centre, I dont' know if anyone has mentioned 'sieging' the centre, but it can be quite good.

A Rogue Necromancy spewing Projectile Vomit into the Centre can swing a game. It's so ridiculous to just throw AOE conditions into the centre. Crews that pile into the centre seem especially vulnerable to AOE.

I dont play forces of mordor yet, but I may give the hooded+serena a try de to their blast triggers... good thinking