How's the power level/balance of ES (other than Cadmus)?

[CD1248]

42 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

I think Explorers are susceptible to hand pressure and ap pressure and I think she's capable doing that. Most aren't good at pulling off hyper-aggression like some of the current bogeymen, which I think is part of what has made people consider Raspy "bad". There's also not a lot of incentive to play control right now, but I think as GGs change and the most OP things are tuned down, control strategies will come into preeminence as viable and strong. The combination of creating impassable terrain and handing out slow is inherently powerful.

 

Raspy has enough anti-synergy with herself that her card and AP pressure often don't matter much, because she's inflicting the same on herself with her barely functioning rules.

All her actions require a trigger to be worth a master AP, but she has no built-in suits, and she needs to pitch cards to use those triggers with Ice Mirror (her only theoretically powerful gimmick), but she has no card draw engine to keep her topped off.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Alcathous said:

I think Explorers are susceptible to hand pressure and ap pressure and I think she's capable doing that. Most aren't good at pulling off hyper-aggression like some of the current bogeymen, which I think is part of what has made people consider Raspy "bad". There's also not a lot of incentive to play control right now, but I think as GGs change and the most OP things are tuned down, control strategies will come into preeminence as viable and strong. The combination of creating impassable terrain and handing out slow is inherently powerful.

 

she will spend only her players hand, ss and other resourses, will have parasite very fast and die suffering

she is one of the weakest masters in the game, and u are talking abt playing her against most broken master

and i think gg will not change in the way u want it

she have no card draw, dont ignores cover/concealment, no good focus stacking in whole faction, so she will spend her activation taking focus, making pillar and shooting once, or trying to make a lot of simple duels, spending cards and stones to make then with suit and HOPING opp will not pass them

and for projectile atack only models DAMAGED by this action will have slow and be pushed, so most of dmg will go to shielded and we are legion; opp have cover or high def-forget abt straight flip on dmg; e&e will just walk and remove pillars

[Alcathous]

@Plaag maybe you are right, but the fact that your opinion of what's good is limited to drawing cards and focus seems extremely limited. 

Imo, the best thing on Raspy's card is Harsh Winter. It costs her nothing except the ice pillars she needs anyways.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Alcathous said:

@Plaag maybe you are right, but the fact that your opinion of what's good is limited to drawing cards and focus seems extremely limited. 

Imo, the best thing on Raspy's card is Harsh Winter. It costs her nothing except the ice pillars she needs anyways.

i write abt it too-u need discard a card to make it with trigger, sometimes u need to cheat passing tn, sometimes to spend ss for suit, and all what u will have-hope that opp will not pass tn

[Alcathous]

@Plaag I think you're thinking of something else. Harsh Winter is the ability that forces enemies to discard when they start next to ice pillars or gain slow.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Alcathous said:

@Plaag I think you're thinking of something else. Harsh Winter is the ability that forces enemies to discard when they start next to ice pillars or gain slow.

this ability, ok, i forget how it is called, but i told u that nexus have free models like e&e to remove pillars, and good card draw-few cards for discading them with key models will do nothing

[Alcathous]

3 minutes ago, Plaag said:

this ability, ok, i forget how it is called, but i told u that nexus have free models like e&e to remove pillars, and good card draw-few cards for discading them with key models will do nothing

And I told you I don't trust your opinion because I know you've already made up your mind 😉 Really, you're right about the e&e being significant for removing pillars, but it's more complicated than you're making it out and I think a good raspy player could pull off a win. In any pool? Probably not.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Alcathous said:

And I told you I don't trust your opinion because I know you've already made up your mind 😉 Really, you're right about the e&e being significant for removing pillars, but it's more complicated than you're making it out and I think a good raspy player could pull off a win. In any pool? Probably not.

maybe u want to check it playing?

[Alcathous]

5 minutes ago, Plaag said:

maybe u want to check it playing?

I'll leave raspy to someone else who knows her better. I like her, but I haven't put any time into her.

I'm happy to test the hand pressure theory with Euripides if that interests you. It's not quite the same, but there's some similar mechanics at play. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Alcathous said:

I'll leave raspy to someone else who knows her better. I like her, but I haven't put any time into her.

I'm happy to test the hand pressure theory with Euripides if that interests you. It's not quite the same, but there's some similar mechanics at play. 

then u should trust me, because i know raspi very well)

[Cedar]

I played against raspy few times, with those 3 masters - Anya, Maxine and Basse. I won with both Maxine and Anya, and tied with Basse (it was my 1st or 2nd game with him, and even now I don't play him that well). The games against Maxine was a disaster for Raspy - Harsh Winter and Blizzard didn't work at all. Why you may as? Well, Machinists allow my models within 3" to ignore effects of enemy , so I was just ignoring Harsh Winter, and Golem was engaged by both Kyia  and Emissary (who can be repaired with Machinists/Beebe anyway). Due to reconfigure and deep discovery I was able to cheat freeze overs. Turn 2 Raspy ended being engaged by Calypso, so she had to somehow deal with them. ES have very strong counterpicks against enemy playstyle, you just need to tailor your crew to utilize them, sometimes even playing almost OOK. Except Cadmus and McCabe they struggle against armor, as they don't have reliable armor ignoring models (no, Spectres are not reliable hire, and Hoff constructs have too low WP to summon them with Ivan anyway).

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Except Cadmus and McCabe they struggle against armor, as they don't have reliable armor ignoring models (no, Spectres are not reliable hire, and Hoff constructs have too low WP to summon them with Ivan anyway).

McCabe struggles against armor?

His upgrade gives precise, and Desperaux ignores it by default.

Sure a crew full of armor is probably hard, but I'd think McCabe has more tech than most. Not to mention you can always snag Kiya.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, you mean only those two keywords are good against armor. Ignore me xD

Although I had assumed Kiya was a pretty decent option?

[Cedar]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

McCabe struggles against armor?

His upgrade gives precise, and Desperaux ignores it by default.

Sure a crew full of armor is probably hard, but I'd think McCabe has more tech than most. Not to mention you can always snag Kiya.

Sorry, I wasn't clear - ES except for McCabe and Cadmus struggle against armored crews  Kiya is worse Joss. She needs shielded to have irreducible damage, and she can get only 1 from her bonus action, so needs to get it from Maxine/Emissary/Machinists/Porter. Emissary is most reliable, as she gets Shielded +1 just by activating near him. She also needs focused to hit those 4/6 damage, otherwise she hits like min-3 beaters in other factions.

[katadder]

I know you guys don't like raspy but don't think you use her keyword if you think she has no anti armour. 

I happen to like her keyword and acolytes who have analyse weakness 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

I know you guys don't like raspy but don't think you use her keyword if you think she has no anti armour. 

I happen to like her keyword and acolytes who have analyse weakness 

acolytes are awful models

only blessed and silent ones are good in keyword, but its better to take miranda instead of blessed

[Mycellanious]

10 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Mv 14 is hefty enough that you can't just trivially heal off of it for most models, especially the slower ones like in Cadmus. The real issue I have with her shockwaves is the shockwave 1.

Also I'm taking Beebe + Calypso into Raspy who can put some good pressure onto raspy herself without worrying too much about reprisal between armor 2 and having a built in healer who can't be touched.

I dont believe Bebe can use his Welder on Calypso when inside it, since it is an attack action and cant target itself

[Cedar]

He can. He measure los and range from calypso, but he doesn't target himself. Same as nexus can attack with hive strike a model from which she measures los and range. 

[Mycellanious]

3 minutes ago, Cedar said:

He can. He measure los and range from calypso, but he doesn't target himself. Same as nexus can attack with hive strike a model from which she measures los and range. 

But he measures LoS from Calypso. So Calypso would be attacking himself no?

 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

But he measures LoS from Calypso. So Calypso would be attacking himself no?

 

no-bebe use her action to atack calypso, so its all fine

[Cedar]

it's Beebe that's taking the action, not Calypso. 

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

I know you guys don't like raspy but don't think you use her keyword if you think she has no anti armour. 

I happen to like her keyword and acolytes who have analyse weakness 

I think Acolytes are cool and like using them, but I think that Analyze Weakness is kind of a dead Action this edition. 

1. Its often tough to get off, since it's usually stat 5. So you opponent spends their high cards to avoid it if it matters, but dont bother if it doesnt

2. It's only range 10. That is within Walk-Charge range of most models. 

3. You need to activate the model early in order for it to be worthwhile. This both throws off your Activation order, and leaves your models Activated near enemy models who can just kill it. Wouldn't it be better to just kill something else before it activates with your early activations?

4. Your opponent gets an opportunity to respond. So the best case scenario for Analyze Weakness is you flip high enough that you dont have to cheat. Then your opponent Activates and just walks that model away. 

I guess its good for dissuading the Armored Warhead models. Maybe your opponent will think twice about throwing a Peacekeeper in the middle of your crew. But so far my only real experience with AW was when Sparks tried to use it on Izamu, failed 3 times, and Izamu still just ran at me and killed everything. I feel like thats the story of Analyze Weakness. 

[ShinChan]

Just now, Mycellanious said:

I think Acolytes are cool and like using them, but I think that Analyze Weakness is kind of a dead Action this edition. 

1. Its often tough to get off, since it's usually stat 5. So you opponent spends their high cards to avoid it if it matters, but dont bother if it doesnt

2. It's only range 10. That is within Walk-Charge range of most models. 

3. You need to activate the model early in order for it to be worthwhile. This both throws off your Activation order, and leaves your models Activated near enemy models who can just kill it. Wouldn't it be better to just kill something else before it activates with your early activations?

4. Your opponent gets an opportunity to respond. So the best case scenario for Analyze Weakness is you flip high enough that you dont have to cheat. Then your opponent Activates and just walks that model away. 

I guess its good for dissuading the Armored Warhead models. Maybe your opponent will think twice about throwing a Peacekeeper in the middle of your crew. But so far my only real experience with AW was when Sparks tried to use it on Izamu, failed 3 times, and Izamu still just ran at me and killed everything. I feel like thats the story of Analyze Weakness. 

• 7ss for a 5/5 with 7 Wounds and no defensive tech? Bad
• Main attack is a gun that doesn't ignore cover, concealment or friendly fire, in a keyword that provides free cover to the enemy? Terrible
• One of the main purposes of the gun is to move people around, which you won't be able to do much, since it's a push and model will just stop in base contact with other models, scenery or (oh suprise!) Ice pillars!
• Ridiculously situational quick action that is going be useful 1 out of 20 games.

They're awful models. The only reason to bring them is for analyze weakness, which with Stat 5 and no triggers  is plain bad.

And believe me, I'm not a super-competitive player or anything, and I really like Raspi's theme.

[Mycellanious]

3 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

• 7ss for a 5/5 with 7 Wounds and no defensive tech? Bad
• Main attack is a gun that doesn't ignore cover, concealment or friendly fire, in a keyword that provides free cover to the enemy? Terrible
• One of the main purposes of the gun is to move people around, which you won't be able to do much, since it's a push and model will just stop in base contact with other models, scenery or (oh suprise!) Ice pillars!
• Ridiculously situational quick action that is going be useful 1 out of 20 games.

They're awful models. The only reason to bring them is for analyze weakness, which with Stat 5 and no triggers  is plain bad.

And believe me, I'm not a super-competitive player or anything, and I really like Raspi's theme.

Oh no I completely agree. I didnt say they were good, just that they were cool!

[katadder]

each to their own I guess, I like to have at least 1 acolyte, I even have a crew with 3 of them.

As for stat 5, into explorers alot of them are wp5 or less so not a problem. Also brings tools for the job which is a nice card cycle allowing easier mutilate