How's the power level/balance of ES (other than Cadmus)?

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 minutes ago, Cedar said:

TBH DUA hit pretty accurate, they just don't pack a lot of punch -  most models in keyword have damage track of 2/3/4 with occasional trigger (except Ivan, who has it practically build-in). Models with guns have stat of 5, shooting at 8". They will hit you, just not hit very hard. The keyword relies on shadow people to engage in combat, when Corvis/Eva/Infiltrators score points. 

The keyword itself isn't too spectacular, so Ivan naturally just picks up a lot of power OOK.

I wonder if when balancing him, a lot of players played him fully in keyword (at which point he seems totally fine to me).

[Cedar]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The keyword itself isn't too spectacular, so Ivan naturally just picks up a lot of power OOK.

I wonder if when balancing him, a lot of players played him fully in keyword (at which point he seems totally fine to me).

I played him few times fully (or almost fully) in keyword - except him and some random Specter they didn't have enough damage to match opposing players. Gladly, I have access to Archivist, Mikhail, young Harata and Emissary.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Cedar said:

I played him few times fully (or almost fully) in keyword - except him and some random Specter they didn't have enough damage to match opposing players. Gladly, I have access to Archivist, Mikhail, young Harata and Emissary.

Yeah, he felt a LOT weaker to face when he was limited to 15 stones in the tournament (although I also felt tons weaker not being able to tech against him).

I feel reasonably confident against Ivan, at least a 45% chance to win with Molly (although so far I've not lost, so who knows). However, Ressers (and Molly in particular) have some of the best tools to deal with him - gravity well, reap, lethe's caress, exorcism, activation control, etc.

I can imagine that there are some factions that just can't deal with Ivan no matter what they try.

And of course, at crew select you have to pick a master that can deal with ANY of the ES masters, which is a really hard ask.

[Cedar]

19 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

And of course, at crew select you have to pick a master that can deal with ANY of the ES masters, which is a really hard ask.

Technically, you have to pick crew that can deal with Nexus - there is high chance that it will work against other masters  

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Technically, you have to pick crew that can deal with Nexus - there is high chance that it will work against other masters  

I dunno, healing is pretty good against Cadmus, but taking a keyword that is reliant on healing is going to be sad days against Jedza 😜

I think that's one of the trickiest things about playing against Explorer's Society. You have to do so much tailoring of your list to your opponent's master.

It's probably one of the reasons I've felt reasonably comfortable against them so far - I main a control master that tailors her list to the opponent xD It seems like it is very hard to play your set list into Explorer's Society and expect it to work (I'm not sure I could ever declare Reva into ES because she is so inflexible).

[Alcathous]

2 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Technically, you have to pick crew that can deal with Nexus - there is high chance that it will work against other masters

I don't really agree that the nexus picks work into other Explorers. I think there are non-busted masters that could work into Nexus that just lose to other ExpS crews (Luci loses to Cooper, Euri loses to Jedza). But even my busted option (Dreamer), I think struggles into Jedza if it's a pool that supports the bubble (Dreamer wants to murder things and relies a lot on the keyword's incidental healing).

[Maniacal_cackle]

38 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

 (Luci loses to Cooper, 

Luci? Leve?

Demise in general is terrible against ES. I think they may have displaced ressers as having the best anti-demise tech in the game.

[Maniacal_cackle]

One issue is people still need to learn how to play against ES.

Like people take Serena Bowman and Midnight Stalker into these matchups, which seems like a terrible idea to me. These models are hard countered by common ES tech.

Maybe if Archivist wasn't in every crew xD but people shouldn't rely on demise or hard to kill so much.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Anyone know how good ES condition removal is?

I know there is a bit of transmute triggers in Cadmus, anything else?

I wonder if traditionally 'bad' crews might be good against ES, but they haven't properly been explored.

Like maybe Kaeris and McMourning are sleeper OP against ES, or maybe Marcus is, or who knows. Very fun to experiment and try to find the solutions.

[ShinChan]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One issue is people still need to learn how to play against ES.

Like people take Serena Bowman and Midnight Stalker into these matchups, which seems like a terrible idea to me. These models are hard countered by common ES tech.

Maybe if Archivist wasn't in every crew xD but people shouldn't rely on demise or hard to kill so much.

Midnight Stalker is the only decent scheme runner without paying OOK tax most of the time, so it's not like Outcasts have more of a choice. There are crews that can live without him, there are others that don't have anything even close to be better.

Serena Bowman is the same for Neverborn, but in the healing department (and condition removal).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, ShinChan said:

Midnight Stalker is the only decent scheme runner without paying OOK tax most of the time, so it's not like Outcasts have more of a choice. There are crews that can live without him, there are others that don't have anything even close to be better.

Serena Bowman is the same for Neverborn, but in the healing department (and condition removal).

True, but I think to some degree you just have to adapt to that.

It may be worth the OOK tax, or even select crews based on the knowledge that you can't take those demise models.

Healing is definitely something I think is overvalued. Some games I don't even bother healing.

And it isn't like ES have horrendous conditions that demand removal compared to say Sonnia (unless I'm missing something)?

So while these models are traditionally the 'best', I don't think they are against ES, which is causing some adaptation issues.

Same as Molly is clearly the best Resser master*, but there are some matchups where I have to learn to pick someone else (Ten Thunders).

*Yes I know she isn't anywhere near the best, let a guy dream 😢

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't take Reva into ES because of the anti-demise, for example.

It just seems too crippling for how I run the crew.

[ShinChan]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't take Reva into ES because of the anti-demise, for example.

It just seems too crippling for how I run the crew.

If the anti-demise tech is attacking the corpse candle I'll be a happy person.

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Anyone know how good ES condition removal is?

I know there is a bit of transmute triggers in Cadmus, anything else?

I wonder if traditionally 'bad' crews might be good against ES, but they haven't properly been explored.

Like maybe Kaeris and McMourning are sleeper OP against ES, or maybe Marcus is, or who knows. Very fun to experiment and try to find the solutions.

They have the versatile 4ss minion, although it's not an easy TN to get.

[Alcathous]

19 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Luci? Leve?

Lucius. I think there's a place where Alan, Candy, and some Lawyers can shut down the engine due to lack of cards. Action funneling helps the FwC problem. It might just fold though. On my try list. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, ShinChan said:

If the anti-demise tech is attacking the corpse candle I'll be a happy person.

You forget Grave Golem is in all my Reva lists 😜 I can adapt around not taking Grave Golem, but compounded with the other issues, I don't think my style of Reva works against ES (until I get more practice out of tournaments).

The candles are potentially a big deal as well. If I fling a corpse candle into the enemy crew, and they remove it with no pyre marker, it takes a bit to get my engine back online. A small consideration, but can make a big difference some turns.

To the wider point, though - demise has traditionally been one of the best defensive techs in the game. But it isn't against ES. Hard to wound for example is far more devastating against ES, so I wonder if Titania is much stronger against ES than traditionally strong Neverborn masters?

I'm sure there must be other things that have traditionally viewed as weak, but are worth trying against ES.

For me personally, Cadmus is the only one on my list that (probably) needs a nerf. For everyone else, I think more testing is merited.

(Although would it have killed Wyrd to have the faction be a tiny bit weaker?? They are on the strong side for sure)

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Alcathous said:

Lucius. I think there's a place where Alan, Candy, and some Lawyers can shut down the engine due to lack of cards. Action funneling helps the FwC problem. It might just fold though. On my try list. 

More out of the box thinking!

I like it. Exactly what may be needed to tackle a faction that is just so different from everything we have faced so far.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also can I just laugh for a moment that I made like five posts assuming that we were talking about Leveticus, and that put me onto demise?

My brain ran away with that one 😜

[Alcathous]

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I wonder if Titania is much stronger against ES than traditionally strong Neverborn masters?

Maybe, but it's also a faction with stellar marker removal. Now, I'm first to defend Titania's ability to play into marker removal, but it gets sketchy when my markers are actively benefitting my opponent. Her ability to aggress definitely keeps her as a contender, but it does make me nervous declaring her. 

[Alcathous]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also can I just laugh for a moment that I made like five posts assuming that we were talking about Leveticus, and that put me onto demise?

My brain ran away with that one 😜

They were still good points 🙂

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

Maybe, but it's also a faction stellar marker removal. Now, I'm first to defend Titania's ability to play into marker removal, but it gets sketchy when my markers are actively benefitting my opponent. Her ability to aggress definitely keeps her as a contender, but it does make me nervous declaring her. 

Is it that good? There is the upgrade, Jedza's lost knowledge, and Botanist, right? We aren't talking like Bayou level of removal.

Both Jedza and Botanist will always be able to provide their own markers I assume (at least, I always build to provide markers for Molly's lost knowledge).

It'd be terrible for your opponent to rely on you giving them markers and you finding a way to deny them.

Although jedzas whole crew being unimpeded changes up the whole dynamic as well. So I think you'd primarily use them for into thorns/wouldn't put them near enemy deployment anyway.

[Cedar]

1 hour ago, Alcathous said:

I don't really agree that the nexus picks work into other Explorers. I think there are non-busted masters that could work into Nexus that just lose to other ExpS crews (Luci loses to Cooper, Euri loses to Jedza). But even my busted option (Dreamer), I think struggles into Jedza if it's a pool that supports the bubble (Dreamer wants to murder things and relies a lot on the keyword's incidental healing).

You may be right, I don't have much experience with Neverborn.

 

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Anyone know how good ES condition removal is?

I know there is a bit of transmute triggers in Cadmus, anything else?

I wonder if traditionally 'bad' crews might be good against ES, but they haven't properly been explored.

Like maybe Kaeris and McMourning are sleeper OP against ES, or maybe Marcus is, or who knows. Very fun to experiment and try to find the solutions.

Hopeful Prospects have condition removal on 6. Cryptologists on 9 . Spelleaters can transform any condition into fast/focus on . Jedza and Nexus have triggers on  on their actions.

[katadder]

26 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Anyone know how good ES condition removal is?

I know there is a bit of transmute triggers in Cadmus, anything else?

I wonder if traditionally 'bad' crews might be good against ES, but they haven't properly been explored.

Like maybe Kaeris and McMourning are sleeper OP against ES, or maybe Marcus is, or who knows. Very fun to experiment and try to find the solutions.

Honestly haven't tried it but I think mcmourning has game into explorers.

Only wp5 so no summoned brocken, hard to wound across the crew helps too. Also healing from poison doesn't happen during activation phase so is ok with jedza.

I do need to try this, could be interesting.

Then you have blasts from sonnia, shockwaves from wong, both from raspy. All the perceived weaker masters may have found their place.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Cedar said:

You may be right, I don't have much experience with Neverborn.

 

Hopeful Prospects have condition removal on 6. Cryptologists on 9 . Spelleaters can transform any condition into fast/focus on . Jedza and Nexus have triggers on  on their actions.

These are all great points! So there is some okay condition removal, and only Jedza can do it on enemies (except Nexus can parasite). Nothing truly outstanding like Nurse or Serena.

Transmutation can't affect any condition, it can only do conditions with values (so no fast).

However, between that and Meredith, looks like Cadmus absolutely wrecks McMourning.

Feels strong against the rest of the faction though.

[Alcathous]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Is it that good? There is the upgrade, Jedza's lost knowledge, and Botanist, right? We aren't talking like Bayou level of removal.

Both Jedza and Botanist will always be able to provide their own markers I assume (at least, I always build to provide markers for Molly's lost knowledge).

It'd be terrible for your opponent to rely on you giving them markers and you finding a way to deny them.

Although jedzas whole crew being unimpeded changes up the whole dynamic as well. So I think you'd primarily use them for into thorns/wouldn't put them near enemy deployment anyway.

I think they are on par with Bayou for removal, but really only Gluttony scares me there because it's more than just removal. 

The treasure map means the whole faction has cheap removal it needed, and combo'd with the Botonist could be really good (as an aside, that combo makes Thoon pretty bad into ES). Jedza's lost knowledge hurts and she also gets the terrain pulse attack. Underbrush powers up Ivan at least as much as it powers up Titania. Basse likes hanging out in underbrush and it turns on Sandworm, although that's a matchup I'm fairly comfortable playing into.

My solution is to roll keyword-light with Titania into ExpS. Feels bad because it does remove a mode of play I have in my toolbox, but it's not the end of the world.

[Cedar]

12 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Is it that good? There is the upgrade, Jedza's lost knowledge, and Botanist, right? We aren't talking like Bayou level of removal.

 

There is also Jessie, who can give you a stone for removing marker