Jump to content

Wishlist for Gaining Ground 2?


Maniacal_cackle

Recommended Posts

15 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

If a 7ss model kills a 5ss model most turns then I wouldn't say the player with lots of 5ss models is likely to be winning.

If they somehow trick the 7ss model to get so out of position they do nothing for the rest of the game, then that's worthwhile, but I don't think a good player would ever let that happen. The slight corner case is if that 5ss model had the ability to score several VP, but I doubt that would end up removing the 7ss model from the game, and even if it did, denying the VPs would be worth the cost difference (in most situations 5ss Vs 5ss is a risk, so making sure those VP are denied requires some extra cost).

But the equation is not simply "did a 7ss model kill a 5ss model." You need to take into account all the resources that went into that. Did it spend both Actions? Did it move further up the board? Did it spend Focus? Did it cheat a severe from its hand? Did my model have Cover, Concealment, etc that it had to find some way to get around? 

 

Malifaux is a game about making trades. Losing a 5ss model is one of the cheapest things you can give away in this game. Trading 2 Actions from a higher cost model as well a high card and a Focus is a significant investment, what am I going to get from that?

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, belorey said:

I think we play very diferent malifaux. Show me those list and games with 4ss/5ss models that can let you score VP with 9ss model.

O before i forget It. I think you like to finish all your sentencie with LOL. 

This general style of play is very good into something like Recover Evidence with Claim Jump, Let Them Bleed, or Vendetta for example

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

But the equation is not simply "did a 7ss model kill a 5ss model." You need to take into account all the resources that went into that. Did it spend both Actions? Did it move further up the board? Did it spend Focus? Did it cheat a severe from its hand? Did my model have Cover, Concealment, etc that it had to find some way to get around? 

 

Malifaux is a game about making trades. Losing a 5ss model is one of the cheapest things you can give away in this game. Trading 2 Actions from a higher cost model as well a high card and a Focus is a significant investment, what am I going to get from that?

Agree but this works for both players. So i will not spend my activations focused on a 5ss Minion, but if see a good chance to get benefit i will take advantage, so probably my 6/7ss model will kill your 4/5ss model and you will not be able to get nothing back.

Understand me I would like to play with low cost minions but my point is that now in GG1 outside of some specific keywords/Minions its better spend your resources on models that can survived a single attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, belorey said:

Agree but this works for both players. So i will not spend my activations focused on a 5ss Minion, but if see a good chance to get benefit i will take advantage, so probably my 6/7ss model will kill your 4/5ss model and you will not be able to get nothing back.

This sounds like player skill then. Can the player with the cheap model unpack in a way that prevents a "free" kill? If they can, that 5ss model goes up in value, if they can't it'll likely die like you say. The higher cost model likely has more agency due to having more on its card, so the cheap model is at a disadvantage. But if played well, there is an advantage to be gained by wasting expensive actions with cheap bodies.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

idk if the opponent's beater is using their Focus to kill my 4 or 5ss models, I am a very happy man lol. I don't really see this as a problem and I am unsure why so many people are unhappy about it. 

If your 10 stone beater is killing a 5.stone model every turn it can be an issue. And I think it's primarily you can't rely on your5 as model in a game as if it's too important it will be killed. As such 5 ss models rarely get picked. 

  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

This sounds like player skill then. Can the player with the cheap model unpack in a way that prevents a "free" kill? If they can, that 5ss model goes up in value, if they can't it'll likely die like you say. The higher cost model likely has more agency due to having more on its card, so the cheap model is at a disadvantage. But if played well, there is an advantage to be gained by wasting expensive actions with cheap bodies.

Again, but this goes in both sides. I asume that both players have similar skills so in most games the player with the "elite crew" (it's not really an elite a 6ss model) will take advantage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, belorey said:

I asume that both players have similar skills so in most games the player with the "elite crew" (it's not really an elite a 6ss model) will take advantage.

In a fight, sure. But if we do get a packet where depth and breadth of positioning matter more, then I think this becomes more even again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Adran said:

If your 10 stone beater is killing a 5.stone model every turn it can be an issue. And I think it's primarily you can't rely on your5 as model in a game as if it's too important it will be killed. As such 5 ss models rarely get picked. 

Sure but how many 10ss models can kill a 5ss model every turn while still scoring points? I can think of a couple, like Mad Dog, but even in that case I would MUCH rather he be punching Gamins than a Golem or my master

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Sure but how many 10ss models can kill a 5ss model every turn while still scoring points? I can think of a couple, like Mad Dog, but even in that case I would MUCH rather he be punching Gamins than a Golem or my master

Many xD I don't know why people are so scared of Mad Dog. He's a great 10ss henchman, but that's it.

Most of Last Blossom can kill a lot of 5Wds minions in 1-2 actions and probably gain another action out of it. Basically any model with a damage track that ends in "/5".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Sure but how many 10ss models can kill a 5ss model every turn while still scoring points? I can think of a couple, like Mad Dog, but even in that case I would MUCH rather he be punching Gamins than a Golem or my master

Lone Marshal, Fuhatsu, Valedictorian, Mad Dog, Killjoy, Peacekeeper... And a very long list of models.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Many xD I don't know why people are so scared of Mad Dog. He's a great 10ss henchman, but that's it.

Most of Last Blossom can kill a lot of 5Wds minions in 1-2 actions and probably gain another action out of it. Basically any model with a damage track that ends in "/5".

 

1 minute ago, belorey said:

Lone Marshal, Fuhatsu, Valedictorian, Mad Dog, Killjoy, Peacekeeper... And a very long list of models.

Its not just "how many 10ss models have a Severe of at least 5," nonetheless because they need to reliably hit that Severe of 5, but almost none of the models mentioned can kill that model while still scoring points. Vally is a good exception because she also gets a summon and scheme marker from it

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

 

Its not just "how many 10ss models have a Severe of at least 5," nonetheless because they need to reliably hit that Severe of 5, but almost none of the models mentioned can kill that model while still scoring points. Vally is a good exception because she also gets a summon and scheme marker from it

Why not? You said Claim Jump or Let them Bleed are good scheme for 5ss Minions, i can score both with those models whilst i kill your minions each turn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's more than one turn in a game of Malifaux. If we assume that first turn no killing happens (which in many cases isn't true), then if your 10ss model kills two 5ss models in two turns, you have two turns left for scoring.

I think all of this last page of discussion is a bit pointless - there are some good cheap models, but most cheap models never see the light of day in a tournament list. That means something's bad about them. Untill players start winning games in a competitive environment with the 'bad' cheap models then trying to tell people they are good is a waste of time.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

I think all of this last page of discussion is a bit pointless - there are some good cheap models, but most cheap models never see the light of day in a tournament list. That means something's bad about them. Untill players start winning games in a competitive environment with the 'bad' cheap models then trying to tell people they are good is a waste of time

It's not pointless because the discussion point is if the models are bad or the current strats and schemes just don't support cheap models. Honestly? Probably a bit of both. You can see in Explorers that devs have a better idea of what makes a cheap model playable.

I have cheap models that I like and I think are situationally good, but I rarely find those situations in the current GG (Lyssa come to mind). It's also more than just the pools being bad for cheap models, but also that the pools are very good for the big tough ones.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, belorey said:

Why not? You said Claim Jump or Let them Bleed are good scheme for 5ss Minions, i can score both with those models whilst i kill your minions each turn.

Well for Let Them Bleed, I highly doubt my 5ss minions are the most expensive models in my crew, so any Attacks you put into them are wasted as far as scoring that scheme goes. And if they do happen to be my most expensive models, you wouldn't want to be deleting them anyway since you would need them to be alive, but below half for the first point unless you plan to table me? Furthermore, having the same amount of wound distributed among a larger number of models makes it more difficult to score the second point since you need more individual Attacks, in different places on the board, in order to ensure that none of my models are at full health

For Claim Jump, if you are attacking my 5ss minions, then the model I took Claim Jump on is not being attacked as often which makes it easier for me to score it. As far as YOUR Claim Jump is concerned, I only need 1 model near yours at the end of each turn. Having more bodies makes it easier to accomplish this, and it also means that I have more weight of attacks trying to get your model down to half wounds, even if each individual attack is less effective.

 

24 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

There's more than one turn in a game of Malifaux. If we assume that first turn no killing happens (which in many cases isn't true), then if your 10ss model kills two 5ss models in two turns, you have two turns left for scoring.

I think all of this last page of discussion is a bit pointless - there are some good cheap models, but most cheap models never see the light of day in a tournament list. That means something's bad about them. Untill players start winning games in a competitive environment with the 'bad' cheap models then trying to tell people they are good is a waste of time.

Sure, kill everything then scheme is a viable strategy. And I think it is important for the game to have that strategy applicable! However, I think it would be foolish to rule out a different style of play where your 5ss minions simply try to delay your 10ss model for as long as possible, especially if that 10ss model is trying to kill everything then scheme, since it is often more difficult to kill 2 cheap models than 1 large model because their wounds are in different places on the board, and you can often overkill the first. 

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Well for Let Them Bleed, I highly doubt my 5ss minions are the most expensive models in my crew, so any Attacks you put into them are wasted as far as scoring that scheme goes. And if they do happen to be my most expensive models, you wouldn't want to be deleting them anyway since you would need them to be alive, but below half for the first point unless you plan to table me? Furthermore, having the same amount of wound distributed among a larger number of models makes it more difficult to score the second point since you need more individual Attacks, in different places on the board, in order to ensure that none of my models are at full health

No, i will Focus on your 1 or 2 9ss models and then i will clean all those easy targets whist your 5ss would not be able to score LtB.

15 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

For Claim Jump, if you are attacking my 5ss minions, then the model I took Claim Jump on is not being attacked as often which makes it easier for me to score it. As far as YOUR Claim Jump is concerned, I only need 1 model near yours at the end of each turn. Having more bodies makes it easier to accomplish this, and it also means that I have more weight of attacks trying to get your model down to half wounds, even if each individual attack is less effective.

Again no, i will deny your claim jump with Fuhatsu, PeaceKeeper or other model whilst i kill your cheap models.

How are you gonna score Claim Jump or Let them Bleed with those Minions? That is the question. If you spend 10 or 15ss hiring 2/3 5ss minios that i can kill very easy in T1 or T2 i will have the control of activations, board and schemes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Alcathous said:

I have cheap models that I like and I think are situationally good, but I rarely find those situations in the current GG (Lyssa come to mind). It's also more than just the pools being bad for cheap models, but also that the pools are very good for the big tough ones.

I think this is the point, we all have cheap models that would love to play with but are very situational on the best or useless right now on the most.

We can see on tournament reports. How many times we see games without minions? Even 6 or 7ss minions are hard to see some times. 

  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, belorey said:

I think this is the point, we all have cheap models that would love to play with but are very situational on the best or useless right now on the most

I'm simply shocked to find out we actually all agree about the main issue ;) 

In a perfect world, both of these playstyles are viable and it comes down to skill and game knowledge regardless of how many small guys are hired.

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, belorey said:

No, i will Focus on your 1 or 2 9ss models and then i will clean all those easy targets whist your 5ss would not be able to score LtB.

Again no, i will deny your claim jump with Fuhatsu, PeaceKeeper or other model whilst i kill your cheap models.

How are you gonna score Claim Jump or Let them Bleed with those Minions? That is the question. If you spend 10 or 15ss hiring 2/3 5ss minios that i can kill very easy in T1 or T2 i will have the control of activations, board and schemes.

So personally I think your plan sounds kind of optimistic and kind of depends on me not trying to stop you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

So personally I think your plan sounds kind of optimistic and kind of depends on me not trying to stop you. 

Well i think you are the optimistic because most of the people here agree with me and we can see on vassal tournaments. No low cost Minions.

But i give up, if you think you can do It, hope i'll see you winning next tournament with those list to show everybody is wrong.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/9/2021 at 9:00 AM, belorey said:

I would like to Distracted becomes the real counter of Focus like fast-slow.

So if you are Focus and get distracted you end that condition. Or at least that distracted gives you :-flipto duel and damage like Focus. Because right now a model with distracted and Focus has a no modifiers to attack and a :+flip to damage.

I understand the idea, especially given how Fast/Slow work, but I don't think Distract/Focus would really result in better balance.  Focus is available to every model (except certain models like Archie) but Distract is not evenly spread around factions, much less keywords.  Colette certainly doesn't need this sort of buff.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cats Laughing said:

I understand the idea, especially given how Fast/Slow work, but I don't think Distract/Focus would really result in better balance.  Focus is available to every model (except certain models like Archie) but Distract is not evenly spread around factions, much less keywords.

What if you could give a model I base contact Distracted as a general action?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information