Cats Laughing Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 Possibly more complex than Wyrd wants for GG, but a modified Public Enemies could work: After a model kills an enemy model, it gains a number of Bounty Tokens based on the comparative model cost: Model cost > Killed enemy cost = 1 Token Model cost <= Killed enemy cost = 2 Tokens Killed enemy cost > 2x model cost = +2 Tokens (Total 4 tokens) (insert same friendly controlled kill wording) (Revise wording on discarding bounty tokens to 4 tokens discarded to gain 1 vp) Obviously breakpoints and token numbers could be massaged for balance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 13 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said: Although I guess something like 'number of models in your enemy's deployment zone' might work better, since in the corner example I gave, you'd have a lot of "elite rushes to kill the cheap minion, claims the corner.' So you need a strategy where the players score points in different places to make the little ones more viable. Or just score with Minions, so Enforcers/Henchmen/Masters can't score but can stop opponent's from scoring via killing minions. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted March 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Cats Laughing said: Possibly more complex than Wyrd wants for GG, but a modified Public Enemies could work: After a model kills an enemy model, it gains a number of Bounty Tokens based on the comparative model cost: Model cost > Killed enemy cost = 1 Token Model cost <= Killed enemy cost = 2 Tokens Killed enemy cost > 2x model cost = +2 Tokens (Total 4 tokens) (insert same friendly controlled kill wording) (Revise wording on discarding bounty tokens to 4 tokens discarded to gain 1 vp) Obviously breakpoints and token numbers could be massaged for balance. Could just make it super simple: if a lower cost model killed a higher cost model this turn, you get a VP. Not sure about scaling it like most strategies do, but it will naturally scale in difficulty anyway since the board state will get less and less favourable for scoring points. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinChan Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 Just now, Cats Laughing said: Or just score with Minions, so Enforcers/Henchmen/Masters can't score but can stop opponent's from scoring via killing minions. In that way you're only favoring beefy minions, like Mature Nephilims. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted March 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Cats Laughing said: Or just score with Minions, so Enforcers/Henchmen/Masters can't score but can stop opponent's from scoring via killing minions. Yeah, more 'minion only' strats could be cool, but there are some LARGE discrepancies in minion power level (TT Wastrel vs. ES Wastrel, for example). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, ShinChan said: In that way you're only favoring beefy minions, like Mature Nephilims. 2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said: Yeah, more 'minion only' strats could be cool, but there are some LARGE discrepancies in minion power level (TT Wastrel vs. ES Wastrel, for example). I suppose the obvious fix, would be to make it Minions with a cost of (number, probably 5 or 6) or less without a summon upgrade*. I mean it's not impossible to make such modifiers. And yes, i get that would mean people would look at the best 5s (or 6s, which ever level is used), but once you get down to that level, it's easier for other models to kill them so the power discrepancy, while there, is much smaller and less meaningful. *and add such upgrades to the specific corner cases that arise (ashigaru?) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said: Could just make it super simple: if a lower cost model killed a higher cost model this turn, you get a VP. Thought about something like that, but then it's possible to make your opponent unable to score at the hire step of the game, by simply bringing nothing but cheaper than your opponent's stuff models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted March 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 Just now, Cats Laughing said: Thought about something like that, but then it's possible to make your opponent unable to score at the hire step of the game, buy simply bringing nothing but cheaper than your opponent's stuff models. True, but if you do that, you may not be able to score much either. So it may become a matchup where the schemes are what decide the game. I personally like games where strategy scores are like 1-2 points xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted March 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 I guess it'd have to be "equal or higher", so that way if everyone does tons of low minions, they can score off each other. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 Overall, my ideas above are not fleshed out ready to publish ideas, but merely starting points for discussions on schemes/strats that might bring up the cheaper minions 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted March 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 Just now, Cats Laughing said: Overall, my ideas above are not fleshed out ready to publish ideas, but merely starting points for discussions on schemes/strats that might bring up the cheaper minions Yeah, there'd have to be tons of playtesting, but what this discussion illustrates is that there are at least theoretical strategies that would alter the strength of low cost minions a bit. Of course, some things are just straight trash and need a buff, but the consistent trend of low-cost stuff being useless could probably be tackled on a wider level. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted March 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 There's also no reason you couldn't have a strategy that clears conditions (or just focus and distracted) at the end of every round. That would address one of the biggest complaints about low-cost models (focus-stacked models can one-shot the low cost models). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEV Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 I was commenting on an hypothetical strat that put the emphasis on the number of body. I think there's a lot of other format tweak that can encourage that as well... Shameless thread promotion: I agree that too many 5 as minion are unplayable, but as others said above it a bit of a stretch saying that all 3 to 5 ss are useless. Most of them will have a really specific role to play (which is normal in this slot IMO). I also think this is what Wyrd had in mind for that price tag... The problem is, they made some of them too niche or just too week to play even when their gimmick work. I think we begin to find generalist at 5SS but mostly at 6ss (and pretty good one). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warharan Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said: (focus-stacked models can one-shot the low cost models). How about some "honour" strat? You are not allowed to focus attacks somehow on anything cheaper than you are? (just spitballing here. I am a newb. Feel free to ignore me. 😃) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 17 hours ago, ShinChan said: Other low cost minions that would be pretty good in a Strategy like that: Death Marshalls Flying Piglet Test Subject Watcher Lyssa Crooligan Dead Dandy Hoarcat Showgirl Bayou Gator Banjonista Survivor Whiskey Gamin Frontiersman Warden Sorrow Bandido Freikorpsman Guilty And so many more... I wish this happen, you know how much i like to play in keyword. But most of this models would die between T1/T2 with a single Focus Attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPieChee Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 15 minutes ago, belorey said: I wish this happen, you know how much i like to play in keyword. But most of this models would die between T1/T2 with a single Focus Attack. It would be great to see focus either affect the dual or the damage, but not both (potentially having the ability to use two, one for the opposed dual and one for damage). I know lots of people hate the idea, but it would help balance high and low cost models. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 19 minutes ago, MrPieChee said: It would be great to see focus either affect the dual or the damage, but not both (potentially having the ability to use two, one for the opposed dual and one for damage). I know lots of people hate the idea, but it would help balance high and low cost models. I would like to Distracted becomes the real counter of Focus like fast-slow. So if you are Focus and get distracted you end that condition. Or at least that distracted gives you to duel and damage like Focus. Because right now a model with distracted and Focus has a no modifiers to attack and a to damage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 25 minutes ago, MrPieChee said: It would be great to see focus either affect the dual or the damage, but not both (potentially having the ability to use two, one for the opposed dual and one for damage). I know lots of people hate the idea, but it would help balance high and low cost models. I don't think they will change that because of Cooper. All keyword depends of Focus for their main abilitie and if you get only a in one of both duels their Predatory instint become almost useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mycellanious Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 1 hour ago, belorey said: I wish this happen, you know how much i like to play in keyword. But most of this models would die between T1/T2 with a single Focus Attack. idk if the opponent's beater is using their Focus to kill my 4 or 5ss models, I am a very happy man lol. I don't really see this as a problem and I am unsure why so many people are unhappy about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 11 minutes ago, Mycellanious said: idk if the opponent's beater is using their Focus to kill my 4 or 5ss models, I am a very happy man lol. I don't really see this as a problem and I am unsure why so many people are unhappy about it. I'm happy too because the Lone Marshall only spend 1 PA kill that model 21" away and deny a VP and he can still move or shoot other models. You don't even need to go with a strong beater agains a 5ss minion. The Pathfinder, an Austringer (and his raptor) or a 7ss model can kill your cheap minion in a single shoot with Focus lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mycellanious Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 1 hour ago, belorey said: I'm happy too because the Lone Marshall only spend 1 PA kill that model 21" away and deny a VP and he can still move or shoot other models. You don't even need to go with a strong beater agains a 5ss minion. The Pathfinder, an Austringer (and his raptor) or a 7ss model can kill your cheap minion in a single shoot with Focus lol. Er right. But it's spending at least 2 Actions to do that, probably more if it needs to get into range. But I think where we differ on opinion is that is is NOT costing me a VP lol. I am in no way relying on my 5ss minions to score my VP. My 5ss minions exist to be expendable. So if you want to spend your 7ss model's entire Activation killing my 5ss model, that's totally fine. My 9ss model is gonna go off and win me the game while you are busy with that lol. I personally think the community at large has too high an expectation for cheap models. If my 5ss minion is still alive at the end of the game, then I probably used them incorrectly. In my mind, 5ss models are speed bumps, not lynch pins. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPieChee Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 If a 7ss model kills a 5ss model most turns then I wouldn't say the player with lots of 5ss models is likely to be winning. If they somehow trick the 7ss model to get so out of position they do nothing for the rest of the game, then that's worthwhile, but I don't think a good player would ever let that happen. The slight corner case is if that 5ss model had the ability to score several VP, but I doubt that would end up removing the 7ss model from the game, and even if it did, denying the VPs would be worth the cost difference (in most situations 5ss Vs 5ss is a risk, so making sure those VP are denied requires some extra cost). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinChan Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 3 hours ago, belorey said: I wish this happen, you know how much i like to play in keyword. But most of this models would die between T1/T2 with a single Focus Attack. Most of them won't. Another thing is that they will be worth their points. All the models there have a way (or multiple) to being durable, either defensive triggers, abilities or superior positioning. Death Marshals will die turn 1? After how many actions spend on killing 1? The problem with 4-5 cost minions is that they don't have a purpose in GG1 unless they're extremely specialized or you want them to die for Hidden Martyrs. Plant Explosives and Turf War favored cheap minions more than any current Strategy. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 1 hour ago, ShinChan said: Death Marshals will die turn 1? After how many actions spend on killing 1? Sure Death Marshals will survived, but outside of him, most of them will not. Right? I'm sure there are a few games where cheap minions can do things but most of the time they will be just a waste of SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 39 minutes ago, Mycellanious said: Er right. But it's spending at least 2 Actions to do that, probably more if it needs to get into range. But I think where we differ on opinion is that is is NOT costing me a VP lol. I am in no way relying on my 5ss minions to score my VP. My 5ss minions exist to be expendable. So if you want to spend your 7ss model's entire Activation killing my 5ss model, that's totally fine. My 9ss model is gonna go off and win me the game while you are busy with that lol. I personally think the community at large has too high an expectation for cheap models. If my 5ss minion is still alive at the end of the game, then I probably used them incorrectly. In my mind, 5ss models are speed bumps, not lynch pins. I think we play very diferent malifaux. Show me those list and games with 4ss/5ss models that can let you score VP with 9ss model. O before i forget It. I think you like to finish all your sentencie with LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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