Choosing an Ironsides Crew.

[Regelridderen]

I’m about to start painting up the M&SU. And since the thought of fighting for worker’s rights appeal to me, there’s an actual chance I’m gonna play them - when I get bored with my creepy neverborn kids.

‘Trouble is, when I play around with choosing crews in theory, I quickly end up running out of stones - as I wanna field all of them :). So I’m asking for some pointers, what stables do you bring, what models do you tech in. What won’t you use.

Like for instance, what Henchman do you choose - Captain, Amina, Fitzsimmons or any combination thereof.

Are there games you won’t bring Howard into.

When do you bring steamfitters vs miners.

And I love the Gunsmith models, but... do you ever bring two, considering their high cost?

And all other considerations, you might have..?

Thanks

[admiralvorkraft]

Theorycrafting incoming; 

Amina almost always - expanding the Injured Workers bubble is too good to pass on. One of Captain/Fitzimmons depending on matchup.

Howard could replace the Captain if Assassinate or other heavy killing is required. Otherwise he's overkill imo.

Amina, 2x miners, 2x gunsmiths would be my baseline. Envy and Effigy are versatile picks that seem good. Obvious upgrades are obvious. 

[Jordon]

So in my experience, Howard always comes as a package deal with a steamfitter, I wouldn't take one without the other.

Amina is awfully difficult to leave without as her Injured Workers Act is pretty damn powerful. Fitz is good if your expecting some heavy hitters in the opponents crew. Super armour, H2W plus Unionized is a pretty amazing defence package (expect a target on his head).

I personally love the gunsmiths. I usually bring two of them and I rarely regretted it. Easy target, resourceful and some excellent triggers on a 2/4/5 just melts models. The trick is keeping them alive... 

The rest are very scheme dependant. I don't really rate union miners unless you need to spam scheme markers somewhere (M&SU is pretty light on scheme placement). And as I mentioned above, I wouldn't bother with steamfitters unless I got Howard. Captain is fine if you like him but he doesn't really bring anything that you can't get elsewhere. 

So typically I'll start my list with Amina and Fitz. The rest are very much scheme dependant. None seem like a waste as long as you have a purpose in mind for them. 

[Jinn]

Honestly I don't hire Amina into Ironsides very much. 9ss is a lot for some generally meh actions when Ironsides already has Injured Workers Act, especially given how stone hungry Amina is. If you're autoincluding Fitz and Amina then your lists are gonna be pretty samey IMO. Also it feels bad having Amina, Fitz, and Ironsides without Grit abilities to actually benefit from IWA (Injured Workers Act).

Langston is a pretty rare hire for me as I don't feel he is worth his 10SS given the restrictions on where he has to sit to actually function as a beater, which stops you from being properly aggressive with him. Conditional 3AP just doesn't compare favourably to other 10SS beaters that have Flurry, a less flat damage track and better triggers (in other factions I mean, none of that in Arc; he is still worse than the Emissary in Arcanists though IMO). Also by far the biggest problem of M3e is that Langston's legs are made of swords but he doesn't have Blade Rush.

Union Miners are very nice for getting extra Adrenaline onto Ironsides on turn 1 with Modified Welder. You can use Mouse to assist the burning away if you flip poorly on  Df. I'll almost always hire two Gunsmiths as they offer a deadly ranged threat from within your bubble and can also relatively safely boost Ironsides' Adrenaline on turn 1. If an enemy model ever happens to be sitting out of cover, or if you hit them in melee, you can consistently hit for 8-10 damage in two AP using inbuilt Puncture. That is terrifying on a range 12 model that can move as a bonus action.

If you play M&SU to its strengths then you'll be going for schemes that don't require you to run to distant areas of the board and you can just build your strength and wait for the enemy to engage your bubble, or pull them in with Ironsides. I usually aim to have Ironsides at 6+ Adrenaline and at least Focused +1 and ~5" up the board on turn 1 (using Envy or the Mech Rider depending).

Maybe there's something I'm missing about Amina, but she seems pretty subpar to me (excluding the second source of IWA, which I don't think is worth having to hire Amina) what with needing to stone for that Obey. She could have really used something like Bully, like the Explorers' Versatile has for his Obey, although inbuilt Burn Out obviously would not be balanced.

[dannydb]

For me generally ironsides crews have a core of Fitzsimmons, amina or captain depending in if I'm more likely to get charged or shot and then a medical automototon with magical training and its models that are needed for stratagy/schemes/counter tech from there 

 

Gunsmiths with soul stone cashe can be fun as if you stone for rams within iromsides range you can get double pos to hit, double pos to wound if they don't have coverer/concilment 

 

Howard is also good, he can be a big target though so making sure he stays near ironside for her caught in the ring protection is important 

[Plaag]

9 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

I’m about to start painting up the M&SU. And since the thought of fighting for worker’s rights appeal to me, there’s an actual chance I’m gonna play them - when I get bored with my creepy neverborn kids.

‘Trouble is, when I play around with choosing crews in theory, I quickly end up running out of stones - as I wanna field all of them :). So I’m asking for some pointers, what stables do you bring, what models do you tech in. What won’t you use.

Like for instance, what Henchman do you choose - Captain, Amina, Fitzsimmons or any combination thereof.

Are there games you won’t bring Howard into.

When do you bring steamfitters vs miners.

And I love the Gunsmith models, but... do you ever bring two, considering their high cost?

And all other considerations, you might have..?

Thanks

fitz, captain are useless, gunsmiths too

always take howard, sometimes amina(but she need many resourses-why they didnt give her built in mask for obey), steamfitters sometimes work to give focuses to howard

[Regelridderen]

5 minutes ago, Plaag said:

fitz, captain are useless, gunsmiths too

always take howard, sometimes amina(but she need many resourses-why they didnt give her built in mask for obey), steamfitters sometimes work to give focuses to howard

You’re the first to be so negative. So can you expand on how you play Toni. Other than ‘this-and-this is crap’?

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

You’re the first to be so negative. So can you expand on how you play Toni. Other than ‘this-and-this is crap’?

go and kill everything

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

go and kill everything

Thanks for your effort. That was very enlightening. 

[dannydb]

Plaag has a very very strict criteria for what's "good" and what's not 

 

What works/doesn't work for him might be different for others

[Regelridderen]

7 minutes ago, dannydb said:

Plaag has a very very strict criteria for what's "good" and what's not 

 

What works/doesn't work for him might be different for others

At least he is very clear, if not useful.

But I do believe he’s right in Langston being a prime beater. Vent Steam + movement sheananigans easily turns him into a ‘min4’ beater. (Coming from Pandora, I know how powerful hazardous terrain can be if used aggressively) - but he also seems like a big investment; his own 10 stones + 6 for a steamfitter + Amina to Obey him to max out.

I’m very much in love with the Gunsmiths - coming from Neverborn I hardly know what ranged attacks do - unlike true gun crews like Parker and ‘Perdita, I like the ‘combined arms’ approach in the M&SU with a couple of elite shooters for support but focus on melee. And it seems like they find good use among most crews, so I’m interested in, why you wouldn’t take them. 

[Adran]

16 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

At least he is very clear, if not useful.

 

 

3 hours ago, Plaag said:

go and kill everything

 

3 hours ago, Plaag said:

fitz, captain are useless, gunsmiths too

always take howard, sometimes amina(but she need many resourses-why they didnt give her built in mask for obey), steamfitters sometimes work to give focuses to howard

Translation- I play Ironsides when I want to play a fight. Her purpose is bringing everything into a death ball and making sure it all dies, and when I play her that way Howard is essential, and Fitz, the captain and Gunsmiths aren't good enough. 

(I will say that Plaags english is much better than my second language, even if I did wish he gave more information)

[dannydb]

I guess Fitzsimmons usage is how much you value front of card vs his back of guard 

 

 

Yes his back of card is fairly meh for a 8 stone henchmen but most of his cos Is in his - 1 damage aura I find 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

At least he is very clear, if not useful.

But I do believe he’s right in Langston being a prime beater. Vent Steam + movement sheananigans easily turns him into a ‘min4’ beater. (Coming from Pandora, I know how powerful hazardous terrain can be if used aggressively) - but he also seems like a big investment; his own 10 stones + 6 for a steamfitter + Amina to Obey him to max out.

I’m very much in love with the Gunsmiths - coming from Neverborn I hardly know what ranged attacks do - unlike true gun crews like Parker and ‘Perdita, I like the ‘combined arms’ approach in the M&SU with a couple of elite shooters for support but focus on melee. And it seems like they find good use among most crews, so I’m interested in, why you wouldn’t take them. 

gunsmiths are very expensive and u need add them upgrade like cash-so they cost 10ss? they dont do work for 10 stones; also its more useful to take toolkit, not steamfitter; amina works to activate vent steam and give howard fast, pushing him toward marker, but she is very resourses-addicted

[dannydb]

15 minutes ago, Plaag said:

gunsmiths are very expensive and u need add them upgrade like cash-so they cost 10ss? they dont do work for 10 stones; also its more useful to take toolkit, not steamfitter; amina works to activate vent steam and give howard fast, pushing him toward marker, but she is very resourses-addicted

So for 8 points you get a strong vercitile range component in a faction that generally doesn't have that. 

 

2 of the 4 triggers are almost always useful and are even better in multiples and can be guaranteed with ironsides. Armour pearsing is situationaly amazing and then quick Reflexes can be good but generally not ax good as onslaught or swift action but is more likely to be a thing with a ranged unit 

 

SS cashe is great with them as mentioned and can make other stone users in bubble (Amina I'm looking at you) more reliable 

 

They also have a way to get out of combat ad a free action with a little set up (plus usualy mouse/medical autimatom are behind them keeping them safe) and target practice can be great even if we have the worst stat for it 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, dannydb said:

So for 8 points you get a strong vercitile range component in a faction that generally doesn't have that. 

 

2 of the 4 triggers are almost always useful and are even better in multiples and can be guaranteed with ironsides. Armour pearsing is situationaly amazing and then quick Reflexes can be good but generally not ax good as onslaught or swift action but is more likely to be a thing with a ranged unit 

 

SS cashe is great with them as mentioned and can make other stone users in bubble (Amina I'm looking at you) more reliable 

 

They also have a way to get out of combat ad a free action with a little set up (plus usualy mouse/medical autimatom are behind them keeping them safe) and target practice can be great even if we have the worst stat for it 

gunsmiths are garbage-u will almost always shoot at enemy in concealment/cover, so no positives, no free focuses from anywhere, no def technichs; with cash they cost 10, carl!, just think abt other models 8-10ss cost

[dannydb]

4 hours ago, Plaag said:

gunsmiths are garbage-u will almost always shoot at enemy in concealment/cover, so no positives, no free focuses from anywhere, no def technichs; with cash they cost 10, carl!, just think abt other models 8-10ss cost

I mean there might no cover/concilement options, or we can drag targets out of cover with bring it or Howard heaving them 

 

They don't need focus when you can get free puncture

 

And they have hard to kill, they are shooter so don't need same as front line brawlers and get - 1 damage from Fitzsimmons 

[katadder]

I have to jump in and say I always take 2 gunsmiths, they do a great amount of work, usually together using creep along.

Easy puncture due to ironsides/amina and the other triggers are no slouch either.

[im_open_to_suggestions]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

I have to jump in and say I always take 2 gunsmiths, they do a great amount of work, usually together using creep along.

Easy puncture due to ironsides/amina and the other triggers are no slouch either.

bad. unplayable. not competitive

[dannydb]

1 minute ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

bad. unplayable. not competitive

i mean me and @katadder have said other wise with reasons, please do expand

[im_open_to_suggestions]

1 minute ago, dannydb said:

i mean me and @katadder have said other wise with reasons, please do expand

no

[dannydb]

1 minute ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

no

if your not wanting to discuss your view why bother posting? 

 

 

[im_open_to_suggestions]

4 minutes ago, dannydb said:

if your not wanting to discuss your view why bother posting? 

 

 

thought offering no context to opinions was a new thing going from this thread (dan message steve he will tell you who this is, comment was a joke for steve )

[Regelridderen]

7 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

thought offering no context to opinions was a new thing going from this thread (dan message steve he will tell you who this is, comment was a joke for steve )

As much as I appreciate a good trolling, please do so elsewhere. I started this thread to get some insight in playing Ironsides not trash-talking Steve. 

[Jordon]

Further expanding on Amina. I also tend to include her because she allows for a second "death bubble". This gives that little bit of added flexability and allows you to control more of the board as your able to break your list into two groups. One goes off to do the punching with Ironsides, the other can vary depending on what you've hired. I like escorting Anima with gunsmiths as they do not need to play as aggressive as Toni and are better suited taking pot shots from safety. 

Anima also lets you play Toni a little more loosely. Obviously can play Toni as an absolute missile (as I tend to do). However in doing so, your usually sacrificing efficiency with the rest of your crew as they try and catch up with Toni. With Anima, it lets you play Toni as an assassin, or simply to hold up large swathes of the opposing crew while Amina still delivers the goods to the rest of the crew via IWA. 

I think that's what I like most about running her. The freedom it grants to Toni.