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Opinion: crews shouldn't consistently be able to summon 10+ stones in a turn.


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4 minutes ago, Adran said:

But by your changes you can't summon a zombie unless you hired one, and you can't summon a zombie if one dies this/last turn. You may have been referring to summoning more than 10ss, but that wasn't in what you wrote. So all those models with minor summoning of a cheap model become much harder to summon those models because you have added these hoops. So the change has a minor effect on the main summoners (who get to choose what they summon so can probably turn) and a huge effect on models which only summon 1 type of model, because I can stop them summoning just by killing something that is typically cheap and easily killed. 

 

 

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying. The possible tweak was exactly that, a possible tweak that I wanted opinions on. But hiring a single 2ss minion to get access to summoning 5x 2ss minions seems reasonable to me.

As for a single zombie dying - you've still got four more to summon if you have none on the table... I re-read my post and I think it's obvious I meant specific model rather than type of model, although I could have added the word 'specific' to make it clearer.

It was just a suggestion/idea.

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Malifaux does have a similar "balance at different levels" problem. I don't think that there is an easy answer for it, short of making it a less deep game, which I think would lose it a lot of the int

I would propose a blanket change on summoning. Namely that any summoned model (perhaps excluding demise abilities meant to represent the same model in a different state) should get a summoned upgrade.

I think card draw is bad. Most crews have limited ressources, but card draw crews create ressources from thin air. I think healing is bad. Most crews have limited ressources, but healing crews cr

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9 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

As for a single zombie dying - you've still got four more to summon if you have none on the table... I re-read my post and I think it's obvious I meant specific model rather than type of model, although I could have added the word 'specific' to make it clearer.

I think this is where I missed what you meant. I didn't think you meant specific model. I also don't think Scoffer thought you meant specific model. 

 This is hard to write rules for, especially as a summoned model in the rules is a different model to a previous version of the model at the moment. 

By specific model you aren't actually referring to a specific physical model (I have Izamu and Genbu, so they are clearly 2 different models, but you don't want someone to be able to summon Genbu the turn Izamu dies) but rather some permeance in the plenty value. 

I wouldn't want to track a Hamlin game with this rule...

And please don't misunderstand my intent. Post suggestions. But be prepared for them to have drawbacks, and for people to point them out as a discussion of what you suggest. (Our drawbacks might be wrong, because we misunderstood what you wrote, or there might be simple solutions to them). 

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In the case of Izamu and Genbu the card states that they are the same in every aspect.

When actually playing the game in person it's really easy to keep track of, but not so easy in vassal or in the Malifaux app. At the side of the table you have three sections for models - those killed more than a turn ago, those killed last turn and those killed this turn. At the end of each turn you shuffle the models in the later two sections down one.

The extra minons would start the game in the "dead more than a turn ago" pile. If you don't play the "little tweak" then everything you want to summon goes in that dead more than a turn ago pile. If you only play that you can't summon stuff killed this turn, then you only need two sections for your dead models.

It's a bit wordy, but in reality I normally place my models into a conga line as they die, so it would be trivial for me to manage. Gaming areas with limited space might struggle a little.

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My point on Genbu is that I own some models beyond the current game rare limit. So you need to make sure your rule isn't just based on the specific model (I think I own 9 different zombies from the metal, the plastic and the FLGS free model). That hired mature nephlim that I declared take prisoner on is not the same model (in rules terms) as later grown mature nephlim even if they use the same physical model. So you have to try and make the rules work without that loophole. Its not insurmaountable, but it needs to be thougth about.

Good point, its not too hard to set up something in the physical world to track. (I'm not that organised when I play, but I haven't needed to be.) Does it work easily enough if you don't physically own enough of the model type? (I know I'd just use a blank base or a proxy model in the out of game timer you've set up, but I have plenty of spare stuff). 

It largely seems to be an answer to Ikryu, and the Yan lo "kill my own crew for profit" but doesn't answer many other summoning problems. It does create some possible new problems. I don't know how many times I would bypass a models rare limit over a turn because I haven't bothered tracking it until now.

With the spawn mother, if she has to start with a Gupps, and she has a trigger to prevent the removal of some of her summoning resources, she can easily summon 1 on turn 2 and 2 on turn 3, but that would already put her over her rare limit.  (If you really want you could summon 2 gupps on turn 1). It's quite a big hit on her even following your intent. 

Perhaps stating if you have to choose a model to summon, you can only choose a model you hired, might work better than you can only summon a model that you hired at least 1 of, especially since you have redefined summoning a model a little, and this part of the rules is going back to the old rules which you changed. 

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The very idea "can't summon it unless you hire it" is ridiculous. A Swine Cursed has Demise ability which summons a Piglet or a Bayou Gremlin when Swine Cursed is killed. So I have to spend 6 ss on models I don't actually need in my list to make 1 ability of a 7ss model work. The same for Sammy - 7 stones tax to make one bonus action work. Taxidermists and Pigapult immediately become 2ss more expensive (3 if hired not in Wong crew). And Zoraida will never have her Voodoo Doll, because it can't be hired (and therefore summoned) at all.

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4 hours ago, Scoffer said:

The very idea "can't summon it unless you hire it" is ridiculous. A Swine Cursed has Demise ability which summons a Piglet or a Bayou Gremlin when Swine Cursed is killed. So I have to spend 6 ss on models I don't actually need in my list to make 1 ability of a 7ss model work. The same for Sammy - 7 stones tax to make one bonus action work. Taxidermists and Pigapult immediately become 2ss more expensive (3 if hired not in Wong crew). And Zoraida will never have her Voodoo Doll, because it can't be hired (and therefore summoned) at all.

Hmm... Ok, yes, there are some issues, however:

Demise 'replacements' to my mind shouldn't be summons, and not working in HHC already seems a major reason to change them.

The pigapult I feel is similar to demise - it's not really summoned, it just turns up with it. So again should be changed simply for HHC.

Taxidermists and zoraida sit with Reva in that it completely breaks down.

So, saying it's ridiculous when half of your examples already have the same pitfall in an existing game mode seems very over the top. It seems ridiculous to me that a fair chunk of models have abilities which aren't usable in a popular game mode, and summoning masters are incredibly over powered in low SS games, and many argue still overpowered in the standard format. I'm just spitballing ideas. It's really difficult to get across tone in text discussions, but I feel this is being shot down much harder than it deserves - I am new to the game, so it could just be an awful idea.

 

But, the suggestion that you can't summon models you don't start with wasn't the important bit, it was a side note which could be interesting that I have seen brought up before, although I don't remember a similar reaction. I'm happy to agree that there are currently too many pitfalls for it to be considered any further.

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7 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

Demise 'replacements' to my mind shouldn't be summons, and not working in HHC already seems a major reason to change them.

Bayou demises are summon not replace for a reason. Replacing with an insignificant model breaks a lot of schemes for both players: no reckoning/bounty points, no take prisoner, no hidden martyrs etc. 

 

8 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

summoning masters are incredibly over powered in low SS games

That's true. That's why summoning is banned in Henchman Hardcore format.

Unfortunately m3e wasn't balanced and tested for low ss games. And you'll never get real malifaux experience in 30ss or 35ss games - some crews will be too strong and other will suffer greatly from lack of models and synergy. 

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For what its worth I don't consider Henchmen hardcore as a rules set to be considered when trying to design/balance a model. I don't know if that is what the actual designers consider, although those demise (summon) suggest it isn't. 

I think (from memory) the M3 public beta was given the expectation that the game should be balanced at 50ss games. So if a model was broken in a 30ss game, but was fine in a 50ss game, then it would have been printed. Likewise a model being a non starter in a henchman hardcore game wouldn't have been enough for them to try redesigning it if it did work in a 50 ss Malifaux game. 

 

Sorry if it seems your ideas are being shot down, from my point of view I was trying to highlight issues with the proposed ideas as to why I didn't think they would work as suggested. 

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Let’s be honest and frank about it:  Anyone posting a blanket change on summoning is wasting everone’s time.

Because either you’ve already thought out a list of models that you want changed (and should be sharing that list and discussing the changes to those models), or you haven’t even done that much and you should start there.

That’s going to be true whether you’re talking about 50 SS, or a some future version of Henchman Hardcore that isn’t just a half-page hack job.  

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 I would propose a blanket change on summoning. Namely that any summoned model (perhaps excluding demise abilities meant to represent the same model in a different state) should get a summoned upgrade. Mostly because some models have Exorcism, or abilities that are meant to be anti-summoning tech. But that tech doesn't work if there isn't a unified mechanic.

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Feels a bit rough for poor old rats if the Jury is on the table. Come in Mindless, so entirely possible for them to die before ever activating. But it wouldn't be the end of the world I guess.

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22 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 I would propose a blanket change on summoning. Namely that any summoned model (perhaps excluding demise abilities meant to represent the same model in a different state) should get a summoned upgrade. Mostly because some models have Exorcism, or abilities that are meant to be anti-summoning tech. But that tech doesn't work if there isn't a unified mechanic.

I suggested this in another thread. Some don't like it because then things like the Jury feel a lot stronger, or even Tormented gets a buff, but I reckon it is still worthwhile (and indeed, is part of the point - anti summon tech should work against summons).

Particularly as schemes and strats get much easier to balance if they can treat summons differently. Currently not all summons are affected by the anti-summon rules of Let Them Bleed for example.

So I think it'd be worth it for the design space.

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14 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Feels a bit rough for poor old rats if the Jury is on the table. Come in Mindless, so entirely possible for them to die before ever activating. But it wouldn't be the end of the world I guess.

Serves Hamlin right. I'm still not over how he bullied my gremlins back in 1st ed with this "can't be targeted by Ht1 models" bunk.

On a more serious note, some stuff would have to be changed. Like even if everything got a unifying upgrade mechanic, Taelor's Welcome to Malifaux is still ignored by summoners like Dreamer or Tara.

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12 hours ago, Azahul said:

Feels a bit rough for poor old rats if the Jury is on the table. Come in Mindless, so entirely possible for them to die before ever activating. But it wouldn't be the end of the world I guess.

Give some models in plague the ability to remove Attached Summon Upgrades. Would create some options to work around The Jury while also letting her use her abilities as an anti summoner

 

 

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On 4/14/2021 at 4:26 PM, Scoffer said:

Unfortunately m3e wasn't balanced and tested for low ss games. And you'll never get real malifaux experience in 30ss or 35ss games - some crews will be too strong and other will suffer greatly from lack of models and synergy. 

That's basically where I would like to see more changes go - balance for more game sizes/formats. From my collection of tabletop games Malifaux is the only one not balanced for a range of sizes. I'm not saying it's easy or even possible with a game like Malifaux, but that's why we're discussing it.

23 hours ago, solkan said:

Let’s be honest and frank about it:  Anyone posting a blanket change on summoning is wasting everone’s time.

I think this couldn't be further from the truth. If you've got a collection of models/unit/etc which need a fix you can do it two ways: fix every model individually, or find the common thread fix that, and then adjust the outliers.

Now, if you're trying to fix a small number of models the former is usually best, a large number of models the latter.

However, lots of different rules or different changes leads to complexity. Blanket rules/changes often lead to a more elegant game and are a fundamental of good game design. There is a balance between simplicity and elegance, but used well blanket rules can make it much much easier to balance a game.

 

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5 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

That's basically where I would like to see more changes go - balance for more game sizes/formats. From my collection of tabletop games Malifaux is the only one not balanced for a range of sizes. I'm not saying it's easy or even possible with a game like Malifaux, but that's why we're discussing it.

I think different rules are needed at different point levels. Like the Henchman Hardcore ban on extra leader AP or Summoning. I could see something like an MtG ban list ie x models are not allowed in y format. 

I think we've seen a little of that already with DMH models bring disallowed in done situations. Double Masters being banned. Or even stuff like not taking Masters in games of 30ss or less. 

One day in going to come up with strategies and schemes that work with Henchmen Hardcore and lower point games. Stuff that doesn't require as many models in as many places. Maybe even stuff meant to be played on a smaller board. 

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1 hour ago, MrPieChee said:

Now, if you're trying to fix a small number of models the former is usually best, a large number of models the latter.

The question is: how many models seem problematic in context of summoning? Is 2 or maybe 3 a large number?

1 hour ago, MrPieChee said:

That's basically where I would like to see more changes go - balance for more game sizes/formats. From my collection of tabletop games Malifaux is the only one not balanced for a range of sizes. I'm not saying it's easy or even possible with a game like Malifaux, but that's why we're discussing it.

Same question here. How popular are those small sized games? Isn't it better to create special individual rules for them instead of trying to rework general rules created for normal sized games?

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13 hours ago, Scoffer said:

The question is: how many models seem problematic in context of summoning? Is 2 or maybe 3 a large number?

Same question here. How popular are those small sized games? Isn't it better to create special individual rules for them instead of trying to rework general rules created for normal sized games?

Well, I'm not an experienced enough player to answer this with any conviction, but from forum traffic it would appear that there are concerns with every summoning master, and a few outliers. These feelings aren't universal, but I believe they are felt amongst most non-top-table players.

From my experience, Malifaux suffers from a similar 'problem' that the PC game league of legends does - the feel of balance is completely different at different levels of skill. Riot do a lot of work to balance at several levels of skill to make sure players have fun no matter their skill level.

@Thatguyis probably right that it's probably best to leave the 'normal' game mode alone and work on variant rules to meet a different style of play (lower stones, less feels bad moments - probably targeting new and medium skill players).

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1 hour ago, MrPieChee said:

Well, I'm not an experienced enough player to answer this with any conviction, but from forum traffic it would appear that there are concerns with every summoning master, and a few outliers. These feelings aren't universal, but I believe they are felt amongst most non-top-table players.

From my experience, Malifaux suffers from a similar 'problem' that the PC game league of legends does - the feel of balance is completely different at different levels of skill. Riot do a lot of work to balance at several levels of skill to make sure players have fun no matter their skill level.

@Thatguyis probably right that it's probably best to leave the 'normal' game mode alone and work on variant rules to meet a different style of play (lower stones, less feels bad moments - probably targeting new and medium skill players).

Malifaux does have a similar "balance at different levels" problem. I don't think that there is an easy answer for it, short of making it a less deep game, which I think would lose it a lot of the interest it has. It is one of the reasons that most of those "X is broken" threads don't end with agreement.  There have been plenty of times over the years you can see people complaining a model is too strong, and at a similar time people complain the same model is too weak. And both can have valid points. My common example from the first 2 editions was Perdita. She was a master with high stats. for many new players, the high stats meant that she was untouchable, and they couldn't work around her. By the time people reached a moderate skill level they worked out either ways to bypass high stats, or ways to play that meant they didn't have to deal with Perdita to win, and Perdita was almost never seen anywhere near the winning section of large events because she just wasn't seen as good enough to compete with the "top" masters.  She had a different skill curve to to most masters that meant it was easy to learn a strong play style for her, but it didn't improve as fast as others as you became a better player. 

I'm not sure how you could make a format designed for "low skill" players. Henchman hardcore isn't designed as a lower skill game, it was originally designed (by players) as a faster to play format for something to do whilst waiting for results to be tabulated. It is "easier" for a lower skilled player, just because there are more fixed parts of the game to seem less daunting. I don't think they have any greater chance to win against a higher skilled player than in a normal game of Malifaux.

Currently there are a few summoning masters that are commonly complained about, I don't think its all of them, and they get complained about for different reasons.

Dashel was seen as far too weak originally, so his totem got an errata, and now some see him as too strong, because of the extra card draw, and reduction of hoops to summon. 

Kirai gets complained about, but largely because her totem "breaks" the summoning rules allowing her 2 summoning actions a turn.

Dreamer summoning gets complained about, largely because of the Stitched together being a hard hitting and durable model that he can easily replace if you do kill it. 

Tara was complained about, but not because of her summoning, but rather her initiative manipulation. And currently I think you are more likely to see requests for buffs for her than nerfs. 

Cadmus gets complained about because of everything.  At time of writing, one line of thought is that if you focus on removing his 2 ss summons,  then you cut back his power a lot. 

Sonnia, Lynch, Hamlin, McMorning don't seem to be seen as too strong at the moment (and are sometimes seen as too weak, based on the "Buff this model" threads). You may not count them as summon masters, but they do use the summon  mechanic

Sandeep and Asami don't seem to have the same degree of "over the top" complaints on this forum. Possibly they are at the "acceptable" power level, or just they are also in factions where there are other strong masters so aren't seen as dominating. 

Yan lo has complaints about his summoning, but more the fact that he can "resummon" an ancestor and so allow that ancestor to have a second turn. (He doesn't actually summon, so changes to the summon rules may not effect his playstyle at all) 

Sommer gets complaints, but it seems more his bubble of stats that is the problem, although his ability to feed models to the bubble will contribute to that.

Leviticus gets complains, but more about irreducable damage than his ability to summon Abominations. 

Ivan gets complaints, largely because his summon is directly into combat, and safer from a bad hand than most (as far as I can tell)

So whilst Summoning is a potentially strong mechanic, and there are several masters that summon that several forum users feel are too strong, its not easy to find a change to summoning that would hit them, without hitting every other summon in the game, most of which aren't currently seen as too strong.  

A "1 size fits all" fix often seems to have a greater negative effect on the weaker models than on the stronger models. (Even when it doesn't actually have that effect, it can be perceived as such because it took the model from an occasional pick to a never pick, which appears worse than from an always pick to an often pick). 

Mind you, this is all my opinion, and my general view on the "X is broken" threads is that you should learn to face it. There have been very few things in Malifaux over the past 12 years that were so overpowered that they allowed a poor player to beat a good player. Most just gave a slight edge over people of similar skill levels to you, and if you planned for what they were doing, you could generally counter that edge (even if it took me 10-20 games to learn how to counter that edge I normally managed it).

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Adran said:

Mind you, this is all my opinion, and my general view on the "X is broken" threads is that you should learn to face it. There have been very few things in Malifaux over the past 12 years that were so overpowered that they allowed a poor player to beat a good player. Most just gave a slight edge over people of similar skill levels to you, and if you planned for what they were doing, you could generally counter that edge (even if it took me 10-20 games to learn how to counter that edge I normally managed it).

In M3E, has there even been anything so powerful it allows a great player to beat a terrific player? I can't think of anything. Even when skill levels are reasonably close, I don't think the slightly weaker player could have really good odds of winning with anything (unless the stronger player picked something they're bad with).

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1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

In M3E, has there even been anything so powerful it allows a great player to beat a terrific player? I can't think of anything. Even when skill levels are reasonably close, I don't think the slightly weaker player could have really good odds of winning with anything (unless the stronger player picked something they're bad with).

I wouldn't like to say for certain, this past 2 years my tournament gaming has been almost zero.

There are certainly some crews that have a "scissors, paper, stone" like effect (either in some match ups or scenarios), that can have pushed the slightly weaker player up. For example Molly vs Titania, the Titania player typically will be able to use undergrowth markers with no risk in most games, but in that matchup if she isn't careful the markers will help Molly more than her.  On the assumption they both tried to play their normal game, not adapting for their opponent, the Titania player would do much worse than normal, whilst the Molly player would do slightly better than normal because of those extra markers for the card draw. 

How much better and worse, you probably know more than me. And I would very much expect the Titania player to adapt their game, but for a lot of players that will put them on the back foot just naturally because from what I see most people have relatively set plans they go for when they use certain masters. 

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2 minutes ago, Adran said:

I wouldn't like to say for certain, this past 2 years my tournament gaming has been almost zero.

There are certainly some crews that have a "scissors, paper, stone" like effect (either in some match ups or scenarios), that can have pushed the slightly weaker player up. For example Molly vs Titania, the Titania player typically will be able to use undergrowth markers with no risk in most games, but in that matchup if she isn't careful the markers will help Molly more than her.  On the assumption they both tried to play their normal game, not adapting for their opponent, the Titania player would do much worse than normal, whilst the Molly player would do slightly better than normal because of those extra markers for the card draw. 

How much better and worse, you probably know more than me. And I would very much expect the Titania player to adapt their game, but for a lot of players that will put them on the back foot just naturally because from what I see most people have relatively set plans they go for when they use certain masters. 

Yeah... It is a bit of a tangent, but when I started playing, I started with two other new players.

They had Rasputina and Kaeris, and I had Molly. Condition removal, condition ignore, and marker removal. Needless to say, it was not a positive experience xD

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

They had Rasputina and Kaeris, and I had Molly. Condition removal, condition ignore, and marker removal. Needless to say, it was not a positive experience xD

This is exactly the issue - there are lots of rock paper scissors moments in Malifaux, which is part of what makes the tactical and crew construction so great. But, it's a massive hurdle for new players. The forum threads on masters are useful, but I feel like wyrd should do something in the app to say: these are this master/keywords strengths; this is how you counter them. That would keep those players interested who buy a box or two, loose every game and stop playing. If you know it's because you're being hard countered as a beginner then you can work around it (by getting a box that helps you, or playing against a different master until you want to invest more). Having to search for tactic articles on masters of varying quality can be a huge chore - it seems to be what I spend a lot of time doing, but that mind game of the hobby is probably my favourite bit - but that's not shared with most players.

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Looks at Adran's long list of 'masters' that summon, notes that it doesn't include henchmen/enforcer summons that make several other masters/keywords potential summoning masters/keywords:

Ulix - piglets via henchmen/enforcers, ulix can them upgrade them to bigger pigs

Wong - stuffed & flying piglets via henchmen/enforcers

Molly - forgotten marshal summons (already uses summoning upgrades)

I guess Toshiro is covered by the Yan Lo inclusion (though it wasn't mentioned)

Misaki - Katashiro & Wanyudo via Minako

Zoraida - Gupps via spawn mother

all of ressers can bring in something to summon mindless zombies

etc...

 

Toshiro's summons combined with Yan Lo's pseudo-summons might be considered for errata (possibly adding a nominal summoning upgrade), and Misaki's summons via Minako were already touched in the last errata.  The rest of on this henchman/enforcer list definitely don't need nerfs.

 

Adran's long list, plus this additional list, really makes me wonder what issue people are trying to 'fix' with their generic changes.  For instance, adding a generic summoning upgrade doesn't do anything to complained about summoners like Ivan, Dreamer, Som'er, or Dashel and instead it buffs exorcism models against weaker masters like Wong, Ulix, Hamelin...

 

Yes, adding a generic summon upgrade, might buff an exorcism counter to Ikiryo, but there are better ways to errata Ikiryo/Kirai.  Such as making "Kirai's Soul" on Ikiryo a "when Kirai is your leader" rule (nerfing her as a second master), or removing the part of Kirai's Soul that has Ikiryo not attach her summoning upgrade, which would force Ikiryo to attach the upgrade like the rest of her summons.  (this assumes Ikiryo/Kirai needs a nef)

 

Similarly, if there are other specific models that could use errata, specific errata to those models would be more effective than an overarching rule that affects everything and likely over nerfs some models while not achieving the desired effect with others.

 

 

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I was particularly answering the view that a majority of Summoning Masters are a problem. Not that the majority of Summoning is a problem (which I believe is even less true). 

I decided Ulix  as a "replacer" did not count (Yan lo was a stretch but I think most of the time his replace causes a summon of a Gukodo, or is on a summoned model, such as a zombie. And he was raised as one of the problems in the initial post of the thread )

I also didn't count masters that just summoned their own totems (Colette, Zoraida, Reva). 

But it does show you how many things there are out there that summon. You can make changes to it as a core rule, but it has quite a large effect to be analysed. 

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