Opinion: crews shouldn't consistently be able to summon 10+ stones in a turn.

[belorey]

54 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

What if you have to discard a card for every 4ss it's worth 

I think thats no the problem. 

The game has 3 big resources: Models soulstone and cards. And it's dificult to find the perfect balance because there are too many sinergies between faction models. You could make the opponet discard a card when a summond die, but if he has acces to a card draw...  

[Adran]

7 hours ago, belorey said:

I think thats no the problem. 

The game has 3 big resources: Models soulstone and cards. And it's dificult to find the perfect balance because there are too many sinergies between faction models. You could make the opponet discard a card when a summond die, but if he has acces to a card draw...  

I would say wounds and actions and cards are the main resources. Wounds largely being how much effort is required to deny you that model. Actions matter more than models in most of the current gaining grounds, you need to do stuff rather than just exist. 

 Soulstones are very useful for some crews, but not essential for others. They are useful for all crews in their ability to help with cards/suits and wounds but unless you need to hit a suit reagually you can probably survive on low numbers. 

Summoning has always been a strange one, and in this edition you would have thought it was at the worst it had ever been due to the once per turn on the action, coming in with a negative upgrade and the plentiful limits on models and upgrades, but its still an issue.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

22 minutes ago, Adran said:

 

Summoning has always been a strange one, and in this edition you would have thought it was at the worst it had ever been due to the once per turn on the action, coming in with a negative upgrade and the plentiful limits on models and upgrades, but its still an issue.

 

What was it like in previous editions?

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

What was it like in previous editions?

First edition you generally needed a suit and a marker to summon. And you couldn't spend soulstones to gain suits. And from what I can remember you needed markers based on the size of the base you summon, but then you gained markers based on the base size. 

Players spent a lot of the first turn killing  models to generate Corpse/scrap markers to summon. 

Second edition there was a much larger spread in summoning. 

Requiring a suit and a marker was common, but since stones behave basically the same as this edition getting that suit was much more common. Summon masters would probably try and summon the best 2 or 3 models that their hand would support. Almost all actions were 1 model per summon. (There were certainly masters that didn't follow this, such as Kirai that summoned models by reducing health on models in play, and the dreamer who had to buy a summoning upgrade for 5 stones, but didn't need a marker, and Ramos could only summon spiders, but his action was very much the template for the M3 summon action, with it allowing variable numbers of summons with a TN based on the number you summon, and once you have the first scrap to start the process it produces more and more scrap naturally)

Players worked out how to maximise card draw, and the few models that could provide the markers you need became almost ubiquitous in crews, so if you played Nicodem then you had the same 2 or 3 models to generate corpses and 2 or 3 models to facilitate the best hand you can. 

 

[belorey]

39 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would say wounds and actions and cards are the main resources. Wounds largely being how much effort is required to deny you that model. Actions matter more than models in most of the current gaining grounds, you need to do stuff rather than just exist. 

You can call it Wounds or Models, Actions, or Models, at the end, it's the same. The model gives you Wounds and 2 PA + bonus.

41 minutes ago, Adran said:

Soulstones are very useful for some crews, but not essential for others. They are useful for all crews in their ability to help with cards/suits and wounds but unless you need to hit a suit reagually you can probably survive on low numbers. 

Sure, there are keywords more dependant than others of SS, but we all agree that there are one of the important way of summoning, so they are very necesary. If you have a 13 but no the Ram, you spend a SS and you get a Executioner who cost 9ss. So thats a big resource. If you can get Soulstone easy to prevent, damage, give triggers and get more cards on each turn you have a better chances than the rival.

[Cats Laughing]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

First edition you generally needed a suit and a marker to summon. And you couldn't spend soulstones to gain suits.

Conversely iirc, in 1st, spending a soulstone on a flip flipped an additional card and *added* that to your total, so you could totally just have a moderate (or even weak if you felt risky) of your needed suit in your hand to cheat in and soulstone to get high enough to meet the TN.  

 

 

Overall, one issue I see with some proposals in this thread are that they target summoning as a whole instead of targeting specific 'issue' summoners.  Touching Mindless Zombies (or other cheap & weak summon or even mid-level but reasonable summons) with the same nerf that hits a "10+SS problem" summon is not the way to fix potential issues. If problem summoning exists and needs to be fixed, then specific fixes to the specific problems should be the way to fix things.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Cats Laughing said:

Conversely iirc, in 1st, spending a soulstone on a flip flipped an additional card and *added* that to your total, so you could totally just have a moderate (or even weak if you felt risky) of your needed suit in your hand to cheat in and soulstone to get high enough to meet the TN.  

 

 

Overall, one issue I see with some proposals in this thread are that they target summoning as a whole instead of targeting specific 'issue' summoners.  Touching Mindless Zombies (or other cheap & weak summon or even mid-level but reasonable summons) with the same nerf that hits a "10+SS problem" summon is not the way to fix potential issues. If problem summoning exists and needs to be fixed, then specific fixes to the specific problems should be the way to fix things.

I agree, I'd rather see specific fixes for the specific crews, as part of an overall design philosophy.

That said, I would also like to see the general change of all summons get a generic summon upgrade (anything that refers to a model with a summon upgrade should count all summons IMO).

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree, I'd rather see specific fixes for the specific crews, as part of an overall design philosophy.

That said, I would also like to see the general change of all summons get a generic summon upgrade (anything that refers to a model with a summon upgrade should count all summons IMO).

Yes that would probably help, although there are some "summons" that I wouldn't object thematically to them not getting upgrades. After all I can't easy exorcise the guard that has come along as reinforcements or the rat that shows up to eat a dead body....

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

Yes that would probably help, although there are some "summons" that I wouldn't object thematically to them not getting upgrades. After all I can't easy exorcise the guard that has come along as reinforcements or the rat that shows up to eat a dead body....

Although note that Guard actually do come with an upgrade 😜

I believe the distinction is that masters summon with upgrades if it is a primary summoning ability. Henchmen and enforcers and minor triggers (like summon Gaki) do not attach a summoning upgrade.

But yeah, thematically it makes sense in some cases, but it gets quite awkward mechanically.

[Cats Laughing]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That said, I would also like to see the general change of all summons get a generic summon upgrade (anything that refers to a model with a summon upgrade should count all summons IMO).

There are 4 models with the Exorcism trigger and then there is the Jury's Exorcism Ritual, So 5 total models would be affected, 3 in one keyword. It's probably not a worthwhile change for the game.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Cats Laughing said:

There are 4 models with the Exorcism trigger and then there is the Jury's Exorcism Ritual, So 5 total models would be affected, 3 in one keyword. It's probably not a worthwhile change for the game.

Well, and also the Let Them Bleed scheme, and every future scheme/strategy that excludes summons. It is a major balancing lever they can add to the game without having to errata a single card (I made another thread about hypothetical strategies that could exclude summons as balancing levers if you'd like to have examples).

[Cats Laughing]

Still seems like a thing that isn't worth Wyrd's time, when there are bigger fish to fry (looking at Nexus thread and even the 10+SS premise of this one for two examples).

In your particular example of Let them Bleed, adding summon upgrades to cheap summons has almost no effect.  This again only really matters for expensive (and therefore specific) summons. 

Conversely, adding summon upgrades to all summons can quite possibly make the Jury broken against certain crews (her free damage every activation has no range).  It's also a pretty huge buff (given what the Exorcism trigger does) for those previously mention models into crews that currently summon without upgrades.

Then there's also Somer's summoning, where he uses an upgrade but can also remove the same upgrade.  When he removes the upgrade his summons then count for Let them Bleed (and other hypothetical schemes/strats) and also avoid the various "Exorcism" trigger/ability.  He's often considered a very strong summoner completely unaffected by your desire to add a generic summon upgrade.

There's probably more that gets hit or missed by this proposed change (models that get bonuses against models with upgrades, not just summon upgrades, for instance would be buffed).

 

I'm not sure adding a generic summon upgrade fixes more than it might break.  If there are specific summons that are summoned without an upgrade and are problems for not having an upgrade it would make more sense to identify those and fix them.

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing I just noticed about the Yan Lo double summon is that you need two four masks or better to double split with Chiaki? Seeks unlikely?

Not that you have to double split for the combo, I suppose...

[belorey]

On 2/25/2021 at 8:54 PM, Cats Laughing said:

There are 4 models with the Exorcism trigger and then there is the Jury's Exorcism Ritual, So 5 total models would be affected, 3 in one keyword. It's probably not a worthwhile change for the game.

So because there are 5 models between houndreds that would be benefit for giving an upgrade to every summon model it's a bad choice? Sorry but not agree.

I think that only makes that keywors good agains summoners. And i think Som'er could still taking off the upgrade. Since it's ocasionally and should be his main rule, no a standard like many summoners.

[Math Mathonwy]

4 hours ago, belorey said:

So because there are 5 models between houndreds that would be benefit for giving an upgrade to every summon model it's a bad choice? Sorry but not agree.

I think that only makes that keywors good agains summoners. And i think Som'er could still taking off the upgrade. Since it's ocasionally and should be his main rule, no a standard like many summoners.

I think Cats' point was that it wouldn't solve much at all since only five models care and yet it would be a pretty big change.

[Mycellanious]

On 2/25/2021 at 3:43 PM, Cats Laughing said:

 

In your particular example of Let them Bleed, adding summon upgrades to cheap summons has almost no effect.  This again only really matters for expensive (and therefore specific) summons. 

This is completely inaccurate. Small summons might not matter for the first point of Let Them Bleed, but they hard deny the 2nd point simply for existing. 

Conversely, adding summon upgrades to all summons can quite possibly make the Jury broken against certain crews (her free damage every activation has no range).  It's also a pretty huge buff (given what the Exorcism trigger does) for those previously mention models into crews that currently summon without upgrades.

OK. but the Jury is SUPPOSED to be broken against those specific kinds of crews. It's an anti-summon tech, it should be really strong against crews that summon lots of chaff. Not withstanding, the ability is actually quite weak unless the opponent is Dreamer. It is 1 damage. Woop de doo. 

Then there's also Somer's summoning, where he uses an upgrade but can also remove the same upgrade.  When he removes the upgrade his summons then count for Let them Bleed (and other hypothetical schemes/strats) and also avoid the various "Exorcism" trigger/ability.  He's often considered a very strong summoner completely unaffected by your desire to add a generic summon upgrade.

I'm pretty sure this paragraph is evidence in FAVOR of the change. Som'er's ability to remove Summon Upgrades is OBSENELY powerful, but he is a dedicated Summon Master and it requires TWO suits to accomplish. The fact that the change would not affect Som'er is irrelevant tot he fact that it WOULD impact the models it aims to specificly target: Henchman summon crews. 

There's probably more that gets hit or missed by this proposed change (models that get bonuses against models with upgrades, not just summon upgrades, for instance would be buffed).

 

 

 

 

[Cats Laughing]

Is supposed to be broken? Potentially the most inane support for a rules change proposal I've ever seen.

[Maniacal_cackle]

In my view it isn't currently a massive problem, but it limits design space.

If they make a strategy that can't be scored by models with summon upgrades, for example, then it is going to be pretty wonky that you can bypass that by using non-master summoners.

[Cats Laughing]

Yeah, I get that potential issue.

Conversely there is a lot of summoning in the game that isn't really summoning, at least not in the "add additional models/Soulstones to a crew" manner.

 

There's a bunch of Demise -> summon a Bayou Gremlin/Piglet/Rat in Bayou/Outcasts and several other models that "summon" a friend as part of their cost. 

Several no-upgrade summons are also insignificant which means the strategy/scheme issue is ignored.

 

All this said, I'm in favor of adding summoning upgrades where specific summoning is an issue and could be solved by an upgrade. For instance giving Toshiro's summons a plentiful 2 upgrade could be quite reasonable if needed. Also in favor of other errata as needed where summoning is an issue. Such as making the Ikiryo double summon an "if Kirai is leader" thing. I'm not stating such are cases where things are broken but they are decent examples of where targeted specific fixes could work instead of generic fixes.

[MrPieChee]

I'm digging this up a little, but after reading a little kirai battle report I had a very simple idea which could come in two grades depending on how much you feel the balance for summoners is off. It doesn't solve all of the problems (if you consider summoning an issue rather than the resources available to summoners) but I have a little tweak for some of that.

 

So, first level: a model killed this game turn cannot be summoned in this game turn.

Second level: a model killed last turn cannot be summoned in this game turn.

And then, the tweak that some have already mentioned: You can only summon models in your starting crew, where you only need to bring one of a minion to be able to summon any of them.

[Scoffer]

47 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

So, first level: a model killed this game turn cannot be summoned in this game turn.

Second level: a model killed last turn cannot be summoned in this game turn.

And then, the tweak that some have already mentioned: You can only summon models in your starting crew, where you only need to bring one of a minion to be able to summon any of them

You are trying to fix "big" summoners and completely forget about "minor" ones. All your solutions make models like Spawn mother and Sow almost worthless and nerf models like Pathfinder and Carrion Emissary and even Reva - which definitely don't need a nerf. 

[MrPieChee]

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

You are trying to fix "big" summoners and completely forget about "minor" ones. All your solutions make models like Spawn mother and Sow almost worthless and nerf models like Pathfinder and Carrion Emissary and even Reva - which definitely don't need a nerf. 

I'm not sure the above change would have much affect if any on those summoners... How often does the carrion emissary summon more than 5 zombies in a turn? Or the spawn mother to spawn more than 3 gups in a turn? Etc? Minor summoners by definition struggle to do anything other than minor summoning. (Reva would be hit hard though)

I get the feeling from Facebook and this forum that for new to medium skilled players there is a bad feeling associated to loosing a game to a summoner compared to other masters (although Malifaux has lots of hard counters which create equally bad feelings amongst new players). If a variant of the game that's widely accepted fixes this then there will be more opportunity for the game to grow.

As with any change there is a chance that other balances will be needed along side it. That doesn't mean that the change should be ruled out.

Gaining grounds opens the door for lots of optional rules for players to make use of to make the game more enjoyable for their style of play.

[doubleW]

Noob here... 
think I heard in some podcast a suggestions for summoning masters to start with a smaller soulstone pool, since they increase it anyway with their summons
If for example Kirai starts with 45 soulstones instead of 50 is it too much of a nerf? 

Or for each successful? summoning action you have to pay an additional soulstone?
 

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

I'm not sure the above change would have much affect if any on those summoners... How often does the carrion emissary summon more than 5 zombies in a turn? Or the spawn mother to spawn more than 3 gups in a turn? Etc? Minor summoners by definition struggle to do anything other than minor summoning. (Reva would be hit hard though)

But by your changes you can't summon a zombie unless you hired one, and you can't summon a zombie if one dies this/last turn. You may have been referring to summoning more than 10ss, but that wasn't in what you wrote. So all those models with minor summoning of a cheap model become much harder to summon those models because you have added these hoops. So the change has a minor effect on the main summoners (who get to choose what they summon so can probably turn) and a huge effect on models which only summon 1 type of model, because I can stop them summoning just by killing something that is typically cheap and easily killed. 

 

 

[Regelridderen]

2 minutes ago, doubleW said:

Or for each successful? summoning action you have to pay an additional soulstone?
 

You basically do. You need to ensure the summons, so more often than not you'll see a summon Master having reserved 5 stones to buy his suit. Only when you just happen to have the right combination of card value/suit to cheat in, you save a stone