Opinion: crews shouldn't consistently be able to summon 10+ stones in a turn.

[Math Mathonwy]

On 2/19/2021 at 1:55 AM, thewrathchilde said:

In the short history of M3E we have already seen Tara nerfed, Shenlong nerfed (via Style changes), Zoraida nerfed (rules & GG changes), Mah nerfed, Steam Arachnid Swarms nerfed, Soulstone Miners nerfed, Brin, the First Mate, Stitched Together, the Riders, Ashes & Dust, several other models and probably hit the hardest Archie and Yasunori........ Yasunori to the point where most Thunders players don't even field him anymore (not even situationally).

All of those nerfs were necessary, made the game better and crews more varied, though, so I'm not sure that I see the problem you're cautioning against here. The only one who was nerfed a bit much was Yasunori but the nerf still added to the variety even there. I think that the game is vastly better now than it was before the errata and I believe that opinion is widely shared.

[thewrathchilde]

4 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

All of those nerfs were necessary, made the game better and crews more varied, though, so I'm not sure that I see the problem you're cautioning against here. 

Maybe....I am not sure all of them were necessary and none of them led to the utopia of balance...just a transference of balance hate to other models. 

My issue is the default approach some people have is that any perceived issue of balance has to be felt with by errata (nerfs) without taking the time to play/analyze/experiment to figure out how to beat something the way it is. It is possible that certain things are so far out of balance they have to be changed or can't be felt with within he current rules/model set without changes but we are so new into the edition that the time to figure out counter play hasn't even been allowed in a lot of these cases. 

[Math Mathonwy]

On 2/20/2021 at 6:35 PM, thewrathchilde said:

Maybe....I am not sure all of them were necessary and none of them led to the utopia of balance...just a transference of balance hate to other models. 

I feel that that's a false dichotomy. The fact that nerfs don't lead to a "utopia" doesn't mean that the game isn't better for them. The nerf to SS Miners, for example, was enormous yet they are still great and used a lot. They were just completely idiotic in their original form.

I dunno whether you played previous editions, but M2e produced the original Collodi and Lucius from the same beta for the same Faction. Arguably the strongest and the weakest Masters with similar playstyles and for the same Faction. Beta testing is far from infallible and treating is as such seems weird to me even though I do understand that the default stance is always for retaining the status quo - and it makes sense for it to be the default, don't get me wrong, one must just learn to recognize when things aren't going to fix themselves without errata.

[Harlekin]

As I side note: Does anybody really think the double Toshiro activation is such a huge thing? I have close to no experience with YanLo as he is the only Rezzer Master I don't own (yet). But If I ever see my opponent spending a 10+ of /Stone, his ressources on killing his 10 wounds model, a Master Action and sacrificing a model, another 10+ of /Stone, all the while needing 2 Corpse tokens, I guess, I wouldn't consider it this huge a problem even though he "gained" 2 damaged Ashigaru, soe focus and drew 2 cards, but spent his turn on doing little less. 
I guess it could be the tipping point during a decisive moment of the game but then every single move using the mentioned ressources properly should be able to help decide a game. 
@Maniacal_cackleIs this really considered an imba winning strategy? Or do I fail to see the point? 

[Mycellanious]

3 hours ago, Harlekin said:

As I side note: Does anybody really think the double Toshiro activation is such a huge thing? I have close to no experience with YanLo as he is the only Rezzer Master I don't own (yet). But If I ever see my opponent spending a 10+ of /Stone, his ressources on killing his 10 wounds model, a Master Action and sacrificing a model, another 10+ of /Stone, all the while needing 2 Corpse tokens, I guess, I wouldn't consider it this huge a problem even though he "gained" 2 damaged Ashigaru, soe focus and drew 2 cards, but spent his turn on doing little less. 
I guess it could be the tipping point during a decisive moment of the game but then every single move using the mentioned ressources properly should be able to help decide a game. 
@Maniacal_cackleIs this really considered an imba winning strategy? Or do I fail to see the point? 

The double Chiyaki activation is VERY strong, probably broken. 

I havent seen it yet but I imagine double Toshiro is not as effective, because 

1. Toshiro is harder to kill

2. It takes higher cards and and uses stones

3. You draw less cards from it

4. Toshiro and Ashugaru are slow models, so summoning them in your deployment zone means it takes awhile for them to affect the battlefield. 

[Harlekin]

39 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

The double Chiyaki activation is VERY strong, probably broken

Because of the 6" movement for the whole crew?

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Harlekin said:

Because of the 6" movement for the whole crew?

I think for the reliquary upgrades she can hand out. 

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Harlekin said:

Because of the 6" movement for the whole crew?

The movement, the Upgrades (which are super strong because they are balanced around being put out when models die) as well as being an effect that discards 2 cards in order to draw 4. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, Harlekin said:

As I side note: Does anybody really think the double Toshiro activation is such a huge thing? I have close to no experience with YanLo as he is the only Rezzer Master I don't own (yet). But If I ever see my opponent spending a 10+ of /Stone, his ressources on killing his 10 wounds model, a Master Action and sacrificing a model, another 10+ of /Stone, all the while needing 2 Corpse tokens, I guess, I wouldn't consider it this huge a problem even though he "gained" 2 damaged Ashigaru, soe focus and drew 2 cards, but spent his turn on doing little less. 
I guess it could be the tipping point during a decisive moment of the game but then every single move using the mentioned ressources properly should be able to help decide a game. 
@Maniacal_cackleIs this really considered an imba winning strategy? Or do I fail to see the point? 

I don't know, to be honest!

I was initially quite sceptical of it myself. Although I should point out you're not really killing your own ten wound model (since it comes back, and it takes all of one bonus action to do it).

But as others have said, you also end up with reliquary upgrades, and on recover evidence you have juggled tokens into your deployment zone, making it easier to advance safely up the board.

But yeah, of all the combos it seems the least broken to me, but I have the least experience with it.

[Math Mathonwy]

16 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

The double Chiyaki activation is VERY strong, probably broken. 

I havent seen it yet but I imagine double Toshiro is not as effective, because 

1. Toshiro is harder to kill

2. It takes higher cards and and uses stones

3. You draw less cards from it

4. Toshiro and Ashugaru are slow models, so summoning them in your deployment zone means it takes awhile for them to affect the battlefield. 

How do you kill Chiaki? Toshiro can be killed by Anna Lovelace as a bonus Action (which draws a card).

As for Toshiro - unless I'm missing something he comes back with just 5 wounds which seems like a pretty steep price for just the ability to Summon an extra Ashigaru. Sure, he can be healed but that's still more faffing about.

I dunno, I could very well be missing something since I've never seen it done or even described in detail but it doesn't seem all that OP to me.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

How do you kill Chiaki? Toshiro can be killed by Anna Lovelace as a bonus Action (which draws a card).

As for Toshiro - unless I'm missing something he comes back with just 5 wounds which seems like a pretty steep price for just the ability to Summon an extra Ashigaru. Sure, he can be healed but that's still more faffing about.

I dunno, I could very well be missing something since I've never seen it done or even described in detail but it doesn't seem all that OP to me.

Doesn't Yan Lo heal him when he rebuilds him? So he comes back with 5+5 life?

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

The double Chiyaki activation is VERY strong, probably broken. 

I havent seen it yet but I imagine double Toshiro is not as effective, because 

I think double Toshiro relies on double Chiaki (you need chiaki's corpse?), so it isn't either or.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Doesn't Yan Lo heal him when he rebuilds him? So he comes back with 5+5 life?

Oh yeah, of course - I'm an idiot.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think double Toshiro relies on double Chiaki (you need chiaki's corpse?), so it isn't either or.

Wait - so how does it work exactly? I've been apparently thinking this way too simply. Don't need a step-by-step Action guide but more the order of activations and what they do in general terms.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Wait - so how does it work exactly? I've been apparently thinking this way too simply. Don't need a step-by-step Action guide but more the order of activations and what they do in general terms.

There's a thread on the Resser forums that covers it, I'll see if I can find it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Whut spells it out here on page 2:

Looking it over, it definitely seems weaker than the other things. But again, basically no experience with it myself. It does seem super clunky compared to "draw 8, summon 2".

[dannydb]

So I've noted two of the combos capable of summoning more than 10 stones are double master combos 

 

Maybe that'd the issues 

 

But yes generally other than cadmus summoning that many points is going to require multiple severe which means that's multiple attacks not going though 

[SEV]

3 hours ago, dannydb said:

So I've noted two of the combos capable of summoning more than 10 stones are double master combos 

 

Maybe that'd the issues 

 

But yes generally other than cadmus summoning that many points is going to require multiple severe which means that's multiple attacks not going though 

In most scenario it's the best use of those sever on T1 (and its also when the summons are the most effective). On later turns (2-3) the AP advantage will most likely be better than a severe hit (ofcourse this depend on the board state).

My though on the OP subject : 

I think the problem is not the number of points your summoning but the AP advantage your generating AND the relative power of those AP (AP from a mindless zombies for a rat are obviously way weaker than AP from a stitch). More points = more AP or more powerful AP... But if your summoning is inefficient (costing a lot of powerful AP and strong cards) it's not so bad.

* * *

So how good is a T1 12ss summons? For the sake of the example let's assume it cost 4 AP (2 × 15 SS, 2x8 ss) in 2 different models. Generate at most around 10 AP (let's assume bonus action with 1/2 AP) from 6 ss time 2.

At most 86 SS of AP (6ss models)

This seem busted... But let's compare this to a beater removing a key pieces on t1. Cost around 2 1/2 AP from 10ss and let assume something give him fast, an other AP from a 5 SS model support models.

Let's say you remove a 8ss models after it's activation. Your are absolutely certain to denied 10 AP from 8ss...

+50SS of AP (8ss model)

This is about 1/3 weaker than the summoning at it's full power (both models leaving for the whole game). This seem about right to me. But the summoning is probably easier to achieved an less dependent on the board state...

I think it could be weaken a little bit, but it's not that bad.

 

N.B. this example is base on The Sow summoning 2 piglets on t1 (2 moderate crow) and Ulix upgrading them in one wild boar and one Squealer (this is actually 7ss and 5ss I round this to 6sd per model) requiring a 12+ and  a 8+. Since there's no upgrade but the pigs are mindless (no activation on t1) it was the most simple combo to calculate AP advantage. But what master does it is not the point here. Note 2 : 4 cards (3 moderate, 2 with specific suits and a high severe) is probably on par with what a beater need to get fast and take down a 8SS models on t1.

* * *

Whan can be done to mitigate the summoning?  Well, summons upgrade were a good idea (imo they could have push the drawback a little bit). As some of you said, a generic summon upgrade should exist for every summons that doesn't  attach an upgrade right no

I would had like a scaling drawback (either on the upgrade or on the TN of the summoner) to mitigate the difference in power from a summing on T1 an a summon on T5. For example, the upgrade could be T1 begin it's activation with slow, T2-T3 stunt, T4-T5 no drawback. So your T1 summon would be slow, than stunt for 2 turns... But your turn 4 summons would be free from any condition.

You could also scale the TN of a sumon. +2 on t1, +1 on t2-3, and 0 on t4-5...

I think it's too late for such a drastic change. Just create generic summon upgrade and call it a day... Oh yeah and fix Cadmus (but I guess the summons are bot the main problem with this crew).

 

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, SEV said:

* * *

So how good is a T1 12ss summons? For the sake of the example let's assume it cost 4 AP (2 × 15 SS, 2x8 ss) in 2 different models. Generate at most around 10 AP (let's assume bonus action with 1/2 AP) from 6 ss time 2.

At most 86 SS of AP (6ss models)

This seem busted... But let's compare this to a beater removing a key pieces on t1. Cost around 2 1/2 AP from 10ss and let assume something give him fast, an other AP from a 5 SS model support models.

Let's say you remove a 8ss models after it's activation. Your are absolutely certain to denied 10 AP from 8ss...

+50SS of AP (8ss model)

This is about 1/3 weaker than the summoning at it's full power (both models leaving for the whole game). This seem about right to me. But the summoning is probably easier to achieved an less dependent on the board state...

I think it could be weaken a little bit, but it's not that bad.

 

N.B. this example is base on The Sow summoning 2 piglets on t1 (2 moderate crow) and Ulix upgrading them in one wild boar and one Squealer (this is actually 7ss and 5ss I round this to 6sd per model) requiring a 12+ and  a 8+. Since there's no upgrade but the pigs are mindless (no activation on t1) it was the most simple combo to calculate AP advantage. But what master does it is not the point here. Note 2 : 4 cards (3 moderate, 2 with specific suits and a high severe) is probably on par with what a beater need to get fast and take down a 8SS models on t1.

* * *

I do like your approach but it's a crazy complicated calculation to make. For example, one one hand, you should take into account that the models summoned usually appear at least one or even two walks from their deployment zone thus essentially giving AP in that way but on the other hand you often have Pulses for Focus or for Pushes which are a lot of AP and on the third hand Summons cannot be chosen for Schemes and so on and so forth.

Despite my name, I feel that a mathematical approach is difficult to take to analyze this problem in a comprehensive way.

I do like the idea of making early Summons more costly. In a way this actually happens when Summons are fueled by Corpse or Scrap Markers as they are often more plentiful later on in the game thus requiring less support for Summoning. But naturally a ton of Summoning happens from "thin air".

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, dannydb said:

So I've noted two of the combos capable of summoning more than 10 stones are double master combos 

 

Maybe that'd the issues 

 

But yes generally other than cadmus summoning that many points is going to require multiple severe which means that's multiple attacks not going though 

Well, is it double masters that are the problem, or are double masters a problem because of summoners? 😜

[SEV]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I do like your approach but it's a crazy complicated calculation to make. For example, one one hand, you should take into account that the models summoned usually appear at least one or even two walks from their deployment zone thus essentially giving AP in that way but on the other hand you often have Pulses for Focus or for Pushes which are a lot of AP and on the third hand Summons cannot be chosen for Schemes and so on and so forth.

Despite my name, I feel that a mathematical approach is difficult to take to analyze this problem in a comprehensive way.

I do like the idea of making early Summons more costly. In a way this actually happens when Summons are fueled by Corpse or Scrap Markers as they are often more plentiful later on in the game thus requiring less support for Summoning. But naturally a ton of Summoning happens from "thin air".

Agreed, this is just ballpark calculations. The biggest problem imo is the distortion I introduce by using the SS of a model to account as the relative power of an action (I don't think 1 master action worth 3 5ss model action, but it was simple enough to use).

My point was not to be super accurate. But I think the gap is big enough to prove how strong is summoning on T1 (potentially stronger than an other amazing thing i.e. removing a key piece on t1).

Indeed, analyzing a game (or even a turn) this way would need a more refined models (an a lot of time)... I might do it one day just for fun. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, SEV said:

My point was not to be super accurate. But I think the gap is big enough to prove how strong is summoning on T1 (potentially stronger than an other amazing thing i.e. removing a key piece on t1).

And let's not forget, turn one is the easiest time to use your severes for summons. So not only are you getting more value out of the summons, the opportunity cost is lowest as well.

Try using two severes in the middle of turn 3 and see how that goes for you xD But turn 1 it is often viable (although I agree it is at least something super aggressive crews can abuse).

[ooshawn]

What if everytime you killed a summoned model , the opponent had to discard a card or something

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

What if everytime you killed a summoned model , the opponent had to discard a card or something

I don't like this because it disproportionately punishes weaker summons and has a much smaller impact on big summons.

[ooshawn]

What if you have to discard a card for every 4ss it's worth