More to Hoffman Than Meets the Eye?

[admiralvorkraft]

I'll take him over Howard or the Peacekeeper any day. Toss is one of the best actions in the game. The rest of the model is gravy. 

[Thatguy]

58 minutes ago, belorey said:

Howard? Melissa? Josh? Peacekeeper?

All the above. Bring Dashel and summon Wardens to Toss at your opponent.  Lol

[Thatguy]

50 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I'll take him over Howard or the Peacekeeper any day. Toss is one of the best actions in the game. The rest of the model is gravy. 

I think both Howard and The Peacekeeper beat the Guardian out as a beater. 

I do want to try Tossing something with the Guardian then hitting it with slow via a Warden. 10" away and slow will leave just about anything in a bad spot, eating a turn or more getting back in position. 

[admiralvorkraft]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

I think both Howard and The Peacekeeper beat the Guardian out as a beater. 

I do want to try Tossing something with the Guardian then hitting it with slow via a Warden. 10" away and slow will leave just about anything in a bad spot, eating a turn or more getting back in position. 

So? I'm not taking it because I need a beater. I'm taking it because I need a toss bot with Take the Hit. 

[HowNot2Wargame]

I find with Howard's mobility you can usually get him back within range of a Steam Fitter at the end of a turn.  That's why I prize Howard, he can charge, move someone into your bubble, then get back as needed.

[belorey]

6 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

So? I'm not taking it because I need a beater. I'm taking it because I need a toss bot with Take the Hit. 

If you really need Take the Hit, you have Phiona. You cannot spend 9ss only for Toss. But is my opinion. I prefer spend 10ss on Howard, Peacekeeper or Phiona than in the Guardian.

[Filox]

2 hours ago, belorey said:

If you really need Take the Hit, you have Phiona. You cannot spend 9ss only for Toss. But is my opinion. I prefer spend 10ss on Howard, Peacekeeper or Phiona than in the Guardian.

Problem with Guardian is that he cost 9 when Hunter cost 8 and Joss/Howard/PK cost 10. Also, he does not bring much to the table, if he had Df 6 and something to make him more viable tank model I would think If I want him over Phiona. But for the time being he is worst choice in good keyword and not efficient enough OOK.

[trikk]

13 hours ago, belorey said:

Sure but how many times Howard and an Steamfitter will be within 3"? Maybe T1 and the beggining of T2. And Hoffman crew had cheaper healers. 

He also has scrap generation and can create 2 schemes in his activation which is pretty nifty.

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, belorey said:

If you really need Take the Hit, you have Phiona. You cannot spend 9ss only for Toss. But is my opinion. I prefer spend 10ss on Howard, Peacekeeper or Phiona than in the Guardian.

Except that Phiona can't use Power Tokens, costs more, doesn't have a 2" engagement range, doesn't have Scatter, doesn't have Toss.

I'm sorry that I keep going on about this, but I started this thread complaining about how one dimensional Hoffman is and the consistent argument from a number of folks here has been that to be successful you need to lean into that single dimension of play. Which is just completely contrary to my experience with the game. I have always found that you win by bringing a diversity of tools to the table that allow you to respond to different situations, that movement tech is very often what wins games.

The Peacekeeper is a never-take for me because all it brings to the table is murder, and I rarely need to kill more than a model or two all game (sure, I'll kill more if I have AP free as insurance). There are plenty of ways to do that. The Guardian on the other hand effectively frees up a ton of AP for scoring and unlocks otherwise impossible positioning. 

I will grant that Hoffman (with the Transfer Power pushes and access to lots of Fast) can cope without the Guardian's tech. But he also has a beastly damage track so I'd contend he doesn't need to spend all his stones on dedicated beaters either.

[belorey]

2 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Except that Phiona can't use Power Tokens, costs more, doesn't have a 2" engagement range, doesn't have Scatter, doesn't have Toss.

And Hoffman is happy because he will use them eficiently. 

With Phiona you get extra 6" MOV for Hoffman on T1 so is a "toss". You can Being It enemies for killing selection or to denay VP.

2 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I'm sorry that I keep going on about this, but I started this thread complaining about how one dimensional Hoffman is and the consistent argument from a number of folks here has been that to be successful you need to lean into that single dimension of play. Which is just completely contrary to my experience with the game. I have always found that you win by bringing a diversity of tools to the table that allow you to respond to different situations, that movement tech is very often what wins games.

Sorry but as i explain Hoffman crew is deep and you can play very variacions depending if the rival and the table. 

But that doesn't mean Guardian is a good choice (even if os a good model) because you have better models for similar cost that can do the same.

So you can play with Guardian and he will do a good job, but you will be able to pick a better option the 90% of the games.

2 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I will grant that Hoffman (with the Transfer Power pushes and access to lots of Fast) can cope without the Guardian's tech. But he also has a beastly damage track so I'd contend he doesn't need to spend all his stones on dedicated beaters either.

Agree, Hoffman can be a powerfull beater, but he is a support master. So if we talk about eficience and you have Hoffman on melee instead of supporting your models, that means you are playing your rival's game and not yours.

[Thatguy]

9 minutes ago, belorey said:

Agree, Hoffman can be a powerfull beater, but he is a support master. So if we talk about eficience and you have Hoffman on melee instead of supporting your models, that means you are playing your rival's game and not yours.

Could you expand on what you mean more? Is having Hoffman do the attacking significantly worse than having him transfer AP to a beater to do it?

[admiralvorkraft]

Sure, and if you over invest in beaters you're locking yourself into a bad gameplan. 

And I'm just not impressed with Phiona at 10ss. Bring It is an okay movement trick, but it's not great outside of Recover Evidence. Her attack is good once her grit turns on, or if she's got a scheme marker to power her up. She's good at 9ss of course and with it into RE at 10.

But when my master gives out a resource I don't really want 20% of my crew getting no benefit out of it. 

[belorey]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

Could you expand on what you mean more? Is having Hoffman do the attacking significantly worse than having him transfer AP to a beater to do it?

Yes, because when you overcharge Howard, Phiona or Peacekeeper, enemies within 2" must take a TN15 MV duel or suffer 1 damage and injuried +1 so they must make a big choice with his hand. Keep cards and gain injuried +1 or spend it so you have less high cards to prevent PK next 4-5 attacks or Howard 3-4 attacks.

[belorey]

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Sure, and if you over invest in beaters you're locking yourself into a bad gameplan. 

And I'm just not impressed with Phiona at 10ss. Bring It is an okay movement trick, but it's not great outside of Recover Evidence. Her attack is good once her grit turns on, or if she's got a scheme marker to power her up. She's good at 9ss of course and with it into RE at 10.

But when my master gives out a resource I don't really want 20% of my crew getting no benefit out of it. 

Ok, you think Guardian is better than Phiona. I cannot argue against an opinion.

Tell me a game (schemes and strats) un which you choose Guardian and probably i can give you a better list with other models instead Guardian.

Anyway, as i said above it's fine if you want to play with Guardian, what i am saying is we have better options most of the times, he is not a tech piece.

[admiralvorkraft]

I can't think of a game where I don't want the Guardian's kit.

[belorey]

18 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I can't think of a game where I don't want the Guardian's kit.

Ok so my last game against McM:

Please show your list with Guardian.

[admiralvorkraft]

I wouldn't play Hoffman into that. And if I did and saw McMourning... woof.

You're right, if my back is against the wall like that I probably take Melissa, two Wardens, three Hunters and a Medical Automata or watcher. I take Runic Binding and Vendetta and just try to outmaneuver. 

[trikk]

1 minute ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I wouldn't play Hoffman into that. And if I did and saw McMourning... woof.

You're right, if my back is against the wall like that I probably take Melissa, two Wardens, three Hunters and a Medical Automata or watcher. I take Runic Binding and Vendetta and just try to outmaneuver. 

Fun fact. Nobody who took Runic Binding won a game in the 5 Vassal tournaments  

[belorey]

35 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I wouldn't play Hoffman into that. And if I did and saw McMourning... woof.

You're right, if my back is against the wall like that I probably take Melissa, two Wardens, three Hunters and a Medical Automata or watcher. I take Runic Binding and Vendetta and just try to outmaneuver. 

Well i picked Hoffman and i won 6-1.

[admiralvorkraft]

11 minutes ago, belorey said:

Well i picked Hoffman and i won 6-1.

Then you outplayed your opponent comprehensively and I congratulate you on that. 

[admiralvorkraft]

52 minutes ago, trikk said:

Fun fact. Nobody who took Runic Binding won a game in the 5 Vassal tournaments  

I believe it, it's a terrible scheme. But I'd still rather play it than Claim Jump into Public Enemies when the best models to score it are both non-stone users who cost 9+ in a very linear crew. 

Though a Guardian chucking a Warden in for the first point would be cheeky... yeah, I'd consider that. 

[belorey]

5 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I believe it, it's a terrible scheme. But I'd still rather play it than Claim Jump into Public Enemies when the best models to score it are both non-stone users who cost 9+ in a very linear crew. 

Though a Guardian chucking a Warden in for the first point would be cheeky... yeah, I'd consider that. 

If you want a funny game change wardens for 3 watchers. So you give fast to Guardian and 2 watcher and then Toss all of them + 14" MV and interact.

So you can drop 3 schemes anywhere.

[4thstringer]

I think @admiralvorkraftmight be onto something though.  We all know phiona is gonna get a nerf leaving her in the Agent 46 club of bad.  So can we use the strengths of the guardian to take her place?

 

[trikk]

14 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I think @admiralvorkraftmight be onto something though.  We all know phiona is gonna get a nerf leaving her in the Agent 46 club of bad.  So can we use the strengths of the guardian to take her place?

 

I really like Agent 46. I start every Lucius crew with him. 

[admiralvorkraft]

16 minutes ago, trikk said:

I really like Agent 46. I start every Lucius crew with him. 

I wouldn't go that far, but he does his job. 

I wish he were more mobile.