After damaging, after action is resolved and triggered new action timing

[poulpox]

Hey everyone!

Here is the complicated situation we encountered during our last game: Rat King (with 2 wounds left) charges a model which is in range of a frontiersman's Deputy ability, and triggers Onslaught during its first attack. Once the push for the charge is completed and the Rat King is in base contact with its target, its Swarm ability is also generated.

We struggled for the timing of the new events generated during/after the initial charge attack. We concluded that according to timing on p.70-71, the timing should be this:

1. Deputy ability, as it happens after damaging, which occurs in step e. of the activation 

2. Swarm ability, as it happens in step f. (after resolving the action, but before a new action starts)

3. Onslaught, as it is a completely new action and should occur after the previous action and associated events are resolved.

My question is 2-folds: 

1. is this timing correct?

2. if it is, and the Rat King is killed after the Deputy ability occurs, does the Swarm ability still take place? we felt it could be argued both ways.

 

Thanks for your help!

Thomas 

 

[solkan]

 

19 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Generated actions from Deputy and Onslaught resolve at the same time, so active player resolves first. Onslaught attack resolves. Deputy attack resolves.

There's an exception for generated actions, it's the last paragraph of Detailed Timing:

Quote

If multiple Actions are generated, they are queued and resolved one at a time in the order they were generated (whichever happened first or was listed first on the card). If an Action in a queue generates an Action, that Action happens before moving to the next Action in the queue.

The action or actions generated by Deputy were generated before the action generated by Onslaught.

If the player controlling the Frontiersman models has several in range, and the cards to burn, the order in which they discard cards is going to fix their generated actions in order, as well.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Not to make it extra confusing with yet another voice, but...

12 minutes ago, poulpox said:

1. Swarm comes first because it is after resolving current action, however the current action is not attack of the charge, but the push movement (which is then followed by another, free, melee action granted by the previous charge/push action, hence Swarm comes in between the pus hand the melee attack)

Correct. Charge and the followup attack are two separate actions, and can do things like cause you to take damage from hazardous twice.

In general, you resolve all effects from the current action before moving onto any further actions as spelled out in the timing section (pages 34-35 of the digital rules, sounds like that is the same section you were looking at in paper). Note that there's been an errata to that section, but it isn't hugely relevant here.

12 minutes ago, poulpox said:

2. Onslaught and Deputy are simultaneous because they are both new actions that occur after resolving the attack action generated by the charge

Oh ok, but isn't Onslaught generated first when the trigger is declared in this case? I assume you're thinking it is generated second because this trigger occurs after resolving, but following the rationale of @santaclaws01 above, Deputy is not after damaging (it is generated after damaging but takes place after resolving the current action) therefore wouldn't both occur after resolving the charge attack, hence simultaneously?

Note the rules aren't necessarily 100% clear, so there's different interpretations, and I'm going to do this from memory of the rules so apologies if I mis-cite steps...

I would play it that...

• You declare Onslaught when declaring triggers.
• Onslaught is an after succeeding trigger (because that's the default for triggers), which means that you resolve it in step 6 of the action.
  • When you resolve onslaught, it generates an extra attack.
• Deputy is generated at step 5 of damage timing (when the 'after damage' stuff happens).
  • So you resolve Deputy at this step 5 of damage (because nothing else instructs you to resolve it later)
  • Resolving Deputy involves choosing whether to discard a card. If you do, you generate an action at this stage.

So Deputy happens at step 5 of damage (and I believe step 5 of actions is resolving effects, which includes damage). So Deputy is generated before Onslaught is, since Onslaught is generated at the end.

So the part you're missing is that you don't generate the actions until you resolve Deputy/Onslaught (or at least, that's how I play it).

You've found an exceedingly complex interaction, though. Don't worry, most things will be a bit easier than this!

[santaclaws01]

Rat king charges, generates a melee attack action. Charge ends, resolve swarm.

Resolve first melee action. After damaging, discard a card for deputy generating an action. Finish damage timing, resolve onslaught generating an action.

Generated actions from Deputy and Onslaught resolve at the same time, so active player resolves first. Onslaught attack resolves. Deputy attack resolves.

[poulpox]

39 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Rat king charges, generates a melee attack action. Charge ends, resolve swarm.

Resolve first melee action. After damaging, discard a card for deputy generating an action. Finish damage timing, resolve onslaught generating an action.

Generated actions from Deputy and Onslaught resolve at the same time, so active player resolves first. Onslaught attack resolves. Deputy attack resolves.

Wow, not at all what we figured out! But makes sense, please confirm I get your timing rationale:

1. Swarm comes first because it is after resolving current action, however the current action is not attack of the charge, but the push movement (which is then followed by another, free, melee action granted by the previous charge/push action, hence Swarm comes in between the pus hand the melee attack)

2. Onslaught and Deputy are simultaneous because they are both new actions that occur after resolving the attack action generated by the charge

8 minutes ago, solkan said:

 

There's an exception for generated actions, it's the last paragraph of Detailed Timing:

The action or actions generated by Deputy were generated before the action generated by Onslaught.

If the player controlling the Frontiersman models has several in range, and the cards to burn, the order in which they discard cards is going to fix their generated actions in order, as well.

Oh ok, but isn't Onslaught generated first when the trigger is declared in this case? I assume you're thinking it is generated second because this trigger occurs after resolving, but following the rationale of @santaclaws01 above, Deputy is not after damaging (it is generated after damaging but takes place after resolving the current action) therefore wouldn't both occur after resolving the charge attack, hence simultaneously?

[poulpox]

3 minutes ago, poulpox said:

Oh ok, but isn't Onslaught generated first when the trigger is declared in this case? I assume you're thinking it is generated second because this trigger occurs after resolving, but following the rationale of @santaclaws01 above, Deputy is not after damaging (it is generated after damaging but takes place after resolving the current action) therefore wouldn't both occur after resolving the charge attack, hence simultaneously?

What I mean is that Onslaught is declared at step d.V. (p71) and Deputy is declared at step e. (p71 and sub-step 5. from the damage timing on p70), but they both occur simultaneously after resolving? pheew this is complicated!! no wonder it took us 2h to play 1 turn!!... 

[poulpox]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

 

• You declare Onslaught when declaring triggers.
• Onslaught is an after succeeding trigger (because that's the default for triggers), which means that you resolve it in step 6 of the action.
  • When you resolve onslaught, it generates an extra attack.
• Deputy is generated at step 5 of damage timing (when the 'after damage' stuff happens).
  • So you resolve Deputy at this step 5 of damage (because nothing else instructs you to resolve it later)
  • Resolving Deputy involves choosing whether to discard a card. If you do, you generate an action at this stage.

Ok, makes sense, Deputy is generated after damaging, and Onslaught is generated after succeeding (although declared during the duel resolution), so the Deputy-generated action comes first followed by Onslaught-generated action 👍.

Thanks for your time guys!