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Nexus: An NPE like no other


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Bit of a side note, but I also notice the Dreamer player didn't take Bandersnatch? Any reason for that?

I struggle to imagine taking Widow Weaver without its seven stone upgrade, unless you're running Zoraida.

Speaking of which, Dreamer & Zoraida sounds brutal against Cadmus: summon two stitched a turn, command archivist to attack twice (siphon life + we are legion is two damage, plus 3 for the attack means 4-10 damage off of one ensorcel trigger, obey Husks to swarm of mites their friends.

Terrorize seems super good in this matchup. Could just keep shoving Cadmus' front line backwards with terrorize and obeys, summoning stitched after Stitched. Then after summoning, WW can scheme.

Would love to see a good player try this against Plaag. Or I'm happy to try it next week.

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Here is a battle report of my Nekima into Nexus. For this game, I tried to take a strong lure effect (Wrath's Bring It!, Since the +2 can overpower the unhelpfully low Mv Cadmus has) as the previous 3

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus. Havent watched the dreamer game but for best dreamer player that just sounds bad play.

I don't see any evidence that things are so bad you have to "change the entire faction."   I'd say you have to tweak at most 25% of the models, and I doubt it will come to the level of "completely cha

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I'm kinda guessing that Corner+Symbols would be the absolute worst Strat for Cadmus so it's IMO very worrisome that she can tie against Zipp who is arguably one of the very best Masters in the game for that.

The more I look at these videos the more I wonder how Cadmus got through beta like this? I mean, Plaag is obviously a good player but he isn't doing anything special or weird - he seems to be playing Cadmus like Cadmus is meant to be played. So I'm guessing that this is how it all looked in the beta, too.

And the worst part is that it looks absolutely miserable for the opponent. The massive summoning coupled with the insane control elements make it look like the title of this thread isn't an exaggeration in the least. And since the NPE playstyle is kinda baked into the very core of Cadmus I can't even think of suitable nerfs outside of a massive re-work, basically.

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2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I'm kinda guessing that Corner+Symbols would be the absolute worst Strat for Cadmus so it's IMO very worrisome that she can tie against Zipp who is arguably one of the very best Masters in the game for that.

The more I look at these videos the more I wonder how Cadmus got through beta like this? I mean, Plaag is obviously a good player but he isn't doing anything special or weird - he seems to be playing Cadmus like Cadmus is meant to be played. So I'm guessing that this is how it all looked in the beta, too.

And the worst part is that it looks absolutely miserable for the opponent. The massive summoning coupled with the insane control elements make it look like the title of this thread isn't an exaggeration in the least. And since the NPE playstyle is kinda baked into the very core of Cadmus I can't even think of suitable nerfs outside of a massive re-work, basically.

just imagine what would happen if i didnt flip those cards with archivist turn 3

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As I've been going through and reviewing the Explorers Keywords (so far finished EVS, DUA-Umbra, and Cadmus), it's clear to me that Seeker, DUA-Umbra, and Cadmus are easily "S Tier" crews in terms of power, all on (at least close to) an even playing field with Dreamer/Schtook/Colette (with obvious match up variability). Even if Cadmus is only on the power level of "S Tier" and not to the level of "immediate NPE, impossible to win against" that's still a problem.

I haven't watched any of the games, hopefully I'll get a chance to.

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The more I think about it, the more I think Archivist is the problem rather than the whole keyword.

Without Archivist, you just have a strong bubble crew. With Archivist, you have a strong bubble crew that shoots lasers and has a ton of other powerful things besides:

  • Ill omens +2
  • 2/3 of a leap
    • Stapled to a tax of discard a card to attack cadmus models with non pistol ranged stuff.
    • Allows Archivist to reposition ~13 inches
      • Need to get a last minute symbols of authority? No problem, Archivist will provide a bridge for Nexus to Will of Cadmus an Eyes and Ears to score!
    • Allows a ~5 inch reposition and a double shot at ten inches
  • An insane attack that...
    • Has a 10 inch range and doesn't suffer friendly fire.
    • Can hit for min 3 (4 if there's a nearby enemy with a parasite token)
    • Destroys two important defensive techs - demise and hard to kill
    • Draws cards (or forces enemies to discard - a tomes for some reason?? Why not just any card? This isn't EVS)
    • Can trigger to create more webs.
    • Can attack allies to make a web + draw a card.
      • Why isn't this attack enemy only?
  • Quite a bit of defensive tech for an 8 stone enforcer:
    • 5df, 6wp
    • We Are Legion
    • And tons of defensive advantage from being able to position extremely safely and still attack.\
  • And a few other things.

Archivist just negates so many things that the crew might be weak to (trying to out-initiative them, trying to shoot them up from far away, trying to drain their hands, demise effects, etc). This just seems CRAZY for an 8 stone model (or 9 stone model OOK).

Taking away Siphon Power would be a pretty clear-cut way to deal with it. Most of Archivist's power comes from its triggers, and limiting access to them would sort the model out (instead of being able to get 3 of its triggers every activation). But I really don't like balancing models by taking away access to their triggers. Could always make it a henchman and take away siphon power, possibly with some other tweaks? I dunno, the model seems crazy and I'll reiterate it is definitely my first candidate for a nerf if it turns out one is needed.

Honourable mention: Flush with Cash. There's sooooo many tech picks that people come up against Cadmus, to which the answer is "what if they just use Flush with Cash to negate the attack?"

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On 2/14/2021 at 5:29 PM, Alcathous said:

  

Haven't watched this vid yet; but I agree with this. Dreamer has no incentive to start an engagement early, especially into Cadmus. Your Nightmare, From Nightmares, and Lead Nightmare allow him to quickly reclaim any board presence he cedes in T1-2. The more turns his crew doesn't have a parasite, the better, and that dovetails with the Lucid Dream plan anyways. I know a lot of people don't like Castlefaux, but sometimes it's the right play.

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus.

Havent watched the dreamer game but for best dreamer player that just sounds bad play.

Watched nekima game and for best nekima player was definitely bad play (should have removed both nests turn 1, turn 2 throwing corpses at 1 wound model instead of blood for blood, etc).

So I don't think these videos prove anything tbh other than what plaag wants them to prove.

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16 minutes ago, katadder said:

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus.

Havent watched the dreamer game but for best dreamer player that just sounds bad play.

Watched nekima game and for best nekima player was definitely bad play (should have removed both nests turn 1, turn 2 throwing corpses at 1 wound model instead of blood for blood, etc).

So I don't think these videos prove anything tbh other than what plaag wants them to prove.

I've said a few times I don't think the videos themselves prove much, but there's quite a bit of talking going on.

That said, one great thing about Plaag is he will generally take any challenger - if anyone thinks they can beat his Cadmus, he'll gladly play them and put up the video.

Stats wise, Nexus is currently the top Explorer's Society master in the Vassal series, but that is early days of course.

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1 hour ago, katadder said:

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus.

Havent watched the dreamer game but for best dreamer player that just sounds bad play.

Watched nekima game and for best nekima player was definitely bad play (should have removed both nests turn 1, turn 2 throwing corpses at 1 wound model instead of blood for blood, etc).

So I don't think these videos prove anything tbh other than what plaag wants them to prove.

Them's sound like fightin' words!

I think I'd actually watch Steve take on Plaag's Cadmus... I know he won't be pulling any punches!

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1 hour ago, katadder said:

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus.

Havent watched the dreamer game but for best dreamer player that just sounds bad play.

Watched nekima game and for best nekima player was definitely bad play (should have removed both nests turn 1, turn 2 throwing corpses at 1 wound model instead of blood for blood, etc).

So I don't think these videos prove anything tbh other than what plaag wants them to prove.

I think it's a bit bold to suggest that Kharnage and others are playing bad on purpose in order to paint Cadmus in a bad light. You are basically saying they are manufacturing games for their agenda, which I find quite rude. So maybe you wanna rephrase?! I'm sure that's not how you wanted it to come across..

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4 hours ago, katadder said:

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus.

Havent watched the dreamer game but for best dreamer player that just sounds bad play.

Watched nekima game and for best nekima player was definitely bad play (should have removed both nests turn 1, turn 2 throwing corpses at 1 wound model instead of blood for blood, etc).

So I don't think these videos prove anything tbh other than what plaag wants them to prove.

It's not about videos really :) If you think that you can do better - just play it, because Plaag is ready for a game. It's not about "beating everyone" it's just about showing that Cadmus has some serious issues regardless of opponent's master or crew. You know the list pretty much, you can see how the game will go (at least start) - you are absolutely free to create a counter-pick and try it out.

So far we just see that Cadmus is pretty broken. If we would see a good answer - that would be great for comunity, why not.

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3 hours ago, Maogrim said:

I think it's a bit bold to suggest that Kharnage and others are playing bad on purpose in order to paint Cadmus in a bad light. You are basically saying they are manufacturing games for their agenda, which I find quite rude. So maybe you wanna rephrase?! I'm sure that's not how you wanted it to come across..

sorry but even a rookie nekima player could have dropped both nests turn 1 with no counter play. then to "forget"  (from self proclaimed nekima expert)blood for blood against a 1 wound model and waste an action turn 2 as well. I couldnt watch past that as I could see what was happening. 

I havent watched the other games but when I hear a dreamer is placed within 8 of unactivated models and gains parasite because of it then its all I need to know.

I did see part of the mccabe game, where plaag knew he was facing a gunline so chose possibly the best map in vassal to counter it.

so no, its exactly what I meant and how I wanted to come across.

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4 hours ago, Da Git said:

Them's sound like fightin' words!

I think I'd actually watch Steve take on Plaag's Cadmus... I know he won't be pulling any punches!

i'm too flakey in my gaming to make that good, some days i'm good, then others I forget what i'm doing and mess up from the setup.

On my best day I'll give anyone a good run (might not win), on my worst I will be wooden spooning. Keeps me high middle as a player at best.

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1 hour ago, katadder said:

sorry but even a rookie nekima player could have dropped both nests turn 1 with no counter play. then to "forget"  (from self proclaimed nekima expert)blood for blood against a 1 wound model and waste an action turn 2 as well. I couldnt watch past that as I could see what was happening. 

I havent watched the other games but when I hear a dreamer is placed within 8 of unactivated models and gains parasite because of it then its all I need to know.

I did see part of the mccabe game, where plaag knew he was facing a gunline so chose possibly the best map in vassal to counter it.

so no, its exactly what I meant and how I wanted to come across.

all what u are saying-just empty words, maybe u would like to show what are u made of?

as i told - my opp already knew abt what master im going to play and i didnt knew their choises, they tried to counter cadmus, i asked abt map every opponent, they were fine with maps

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As I said on my best day yeah, but I'm not consistent and have never claimed to be, unlike some people here.

Just because your opponents know doesn't mean they play right. Sorry but kharnage played what I watched badly and hearing his pedigree what are we supposed to assume? He wasn't under pressure at that point, he's claiming that's his best master. Unless cadmus psyches him out then that was just bad.

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1 hour ago, katadder said:

As I said on my best day yeah, but I'm not consistent and have never claimed to be, unlike some people here.

Just because your opponents know doesn't mean they play right. Sorry but kharnage played what I watched badly.

how can u kill even one nest with activation? i deployed them not to be in range of nekima second charge as i remember, so u need to win duel  to hit nest, then to be lucky enough to deal moderate, but i deployed them 4" away from each other and even with 2 sucsessfull tacks, deals 5-6 dmg, black blood deals aditional 1

than nest activates and gives u parasite

i think u dont really understand what u are saying

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2 minutes ago, Plaag said:

how can u kill even one nest with activation? i deployed them not to be in range of nekima second charge as i remember, so u need to win duel  to hit nest, then to be lucky enough to deal moderate, but i deployed them 4" away from each other and even with 2 sucsessfull tacks, deals 5-6 dmg, black blood deals aditional 1

than nest activates and gives u parasite

i think u dont really understand what u are saying

He had wrath and seeing his cards both of those could have been lured in by staying 9 from them. Then ghosts the closest one for min 2.

Then walk charge (one was already wounded moderate by a mature so down to 5 after passing 1 to other). He had cars for shove aside as we saw so charges healthier one, shoves to other blocking LoS between, attacks and blood for blood then charge "healthy" one (4 wounds left maybe).

I'm going off cards seen. And even ignoring that, one would be dead with a mature still to go.

Sorry you couldn't see the play

 

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2 hours ago, katadder said:

He had wrath and seeing his cards both of those could have been lured in by staying 9 from them. Then ghosts the closest one for min 2.

Then walk charge (one was already wounded moderate by a mature so down to 5 after passing 1 to other). He had cars for shove aside as we saw so charges healthier one, shoves to other blocking LoS between, attacks and blood for blood then charge "healthy" one (4 wounds left maybe).

I'm going off cards seen. And even ignoring that, one would be dead with a mature still to go.

Sorry you couldn't see the play

 

maybe u are a great player? but it seems like only on words))

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9 hours ago, katadder said:

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus.

Havent watched the dreamer game but for best dreamer player that just sounds bad play.

Watched nekima game and for best nekima player was definitely bad play (should have removed both nests turn 1, turn 2 throwing corpses at 1 wound model instead of blood for blood, etc).

So I don't think these videos prove anything tbh other than what plaag wants them to prove.

I cheated the Fast Food Ram trigger on that attack in hopes that he wouldn't care/notice so that instead of not getting health back for Blood for Blood, I'd get 3 health back; 1 for killing, 2 for fast food. He both had the king and cared to cheat it, so it missed instead. Otherwise it would have been a huge surge in hope for my half of the board.


While drawing the activated Nests in might have been the right play in retrospect, I had a game plan to drag Meredith to her death since once she dies the husks stopped and I wanted my first recover evidence point, and I wanted to try and make good on that plan. It didn't work out on account of the Emissary, which I had also hoped to drag out and kill but failed to do so, because web markers and choosey placement from Take the Hit.

Also, I'm genuinely frustrated that you feel like I would throw a game on Nekima, ever. That's spitting on my face tier disrespect. Seriously. If I thought I could win into Cadmus, I would gleefully watch everyone else struggle while I put up wins on Nekima. If you think I played badly, that's fine, armchair general away, come out and make big brain Nekima plays and make me proud, but don't you ever question my integrity. 

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3 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I cheated the Fast Food Ram trigger on that attack in hopes that he wouldn't care/notice so that instead of not getting health back for Blood for Blood, I'd get 3 health back; 1 for killing, 2 for fast food. He both had the king and cared to cheat it, so it missed instead. Otherwise it would have been a huge surge in hope for my half of the board.


While drawing the activated Nests in might have been the right play in retrospect, I had a game plan to drag Meredith to her death since once she dies the husks stopped and I wanted my first recover evidence point, and I wanted to try and make good on that plan. It didn't work out on account of the Emissary, which I had also hoped to drag out and kill, because web markers and choosey placement from Take the Hit.

Also, I'm genuinely frustrated that you feel like I would throw a game on Nekima, ever. That's spitting on my face tier disrespect. Seriously. If I thought I could win into Cadmus, I would gleefully watch everyone else struggle while I put up wins on Nekima. If you think I played badly, that's fine, armchair general away, come out and make big brain Nekima plays and make me proud, but don't you ever question my integrity. 

Someone here is Enraged By Insolence...

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11 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I cheated the Fast Food Ram trigger on that attack in hopes that he wouldn't care/notice so that instead of not getting health back for Blood for Blood, I'd get 3 health back; 1 for killing, 2 for fast food. He both had the king and cared to cheat it, so it missed instead. Otherwise it would have been a huge surge in hope for my half of the board.


While drawing the activated Nests in might have been the right play in retrospect, I had a game plan to drag Meredith to her death since once she dies the husks stopped and I wanted my first recover evidence point, and I wanted to try and make good on that plan. It didn't work out on account of the Emissary, which I had also hoped to drag out and kill but failed to do so, because web markers and choosey placement from Take the Hit.

Also, I'm genuinely frustrated that you feel like I would throw a game on Nekima, ever. That's spitting on my face tier disrespect. Seriously. If I thought I could win into Cadmus, I would gleefully watch everyone else struggle while I put up wins on Nekima. If you think I played badly, that's fine, armchair general away, come out and make big brain Nekima plays and make me proud, but don't you ever question my integrity. 

You shouldn't have been in that situation, but also you could have healed more from having 2 actions, killing the other nest and the eyes and ears that was on its own.

This would have left you exactly the same position as if you had hit the heal trigger but also removed 2 more models 🤷‍♂️

I do think cadmus psyched uou out from the start so you were not playing to the standard people who know you come to expect.

If you had wiped the nests turn 1 you could have easily taken on meredith turn 2 if you really wanted but that's another argument for another time. I was just surprised you didn't take the nests when they are such a threat to nekima who wants to be in melee without a parasite.

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Assuming that even stat 7 hits every attack is bold, I've had plenty of "Nekima landed nothing" turns between bad flips and having to save cards for other purposes, so assuming that I'd have cleaned his clock for the heals by just taking every attack possible is at best, unsure. Not to mention she'd have ended her turn in reach of an entirely unactivated enemy crew to kill that nest and E+E. With Black Blood and a Parasite already, that's a death sentence, and spending my master to kill two summoned and easily replaced models, and one half of a totem, seems bad stewardship. And I fully accept the possibility I made bad plays for being on tilt about Cadmus from the start, and if that's what you said, I would have probably agreed and even been hopeful that had I played differently I could have gotten a leg up and won. But what did you lead off with?
 

10 hours ago, katadder said:

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus.

 

An apology would be nice.

 

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I was basing it off the cards I saw you flip so yeah you could have done it easily.

You wouldn't have ended an activation in range as there was a big ass building in the way that the slow crew couldn't get around.

Not apologising for that as from your rant about nekima being your master and tilt about cadmus then coming in here and posting it too then how does it look to anyone outside?

It looks as I stated, you can say it isn't, but going off your own trumpet blowing followed by a rant 🤷‍♂️

I don't claim to be awesome, although plenty of people on this thread do then complain when we question it 🤣

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This is *slightly off topic, but @Plaag could you please start including the Crew lists in your video descriptions on Youtube? If you'd be comfortable with going one step further, including timestamps for when each Turn starts and a timestamp where you mention which schemes each player took at the end of the game would also be amazing.

It would help me (and likely others) greatly if we could easily reference these - watching a 2-4 hour game is not easy to find the time to do. I think this would allow more people to join the conversation.

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