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Nexus: An NPE like no other


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1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

This upgrade isn't even a summon upgrade though. Also, having the ability attach an upgrade already makes it unusable by Cryptologists, so once per turn is unnecessary.

 

I'm firmly in the cadmus is too strong camp, so don't really need any convincing if that's why you're asking.

ok

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Here is a battle report of my Nekima into Nexus. For this game, I tried to take a strong lure effect (Wrath's Bring It!, Since the +2 can overpower the unhelpfully low Mv Cadmus has) as the previous 3

Let's not forget that these people are not playing their best as they have a point to prove about cadmus. Havent watched the dreamer game but for best dreamer player that just sounds bad play.

I don't see any evidence that things are so bad you have to "change the entire faction."   I'd say you have to tweak at most 25% of the models, and I doubt it will come to the level of "completely cha

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree summons should all have summon upgrades, but it'd be a bit weird to do it for Meredith and not for all summons.

And I don't like the design of summoning 10+ stones a turn, but I'm not sure that means it merits a nerf now that it is actually released (unless people are also dominating with the Cryptologist plan).

I do think there should be some awesome stuff to do with Cryptologists in the faction. It'd be a bit weird to have a TN that requires a 9, and then have nothing to do with it other than draw a card...

asami summons 19ss per turn, lol))

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh? What models are needed for that?

But also I don't like all the crews that can summon that much. I made a whole thread about it 😜

ototo, minako, asami) thats all

minako and katashiro are broken

and flicker tokens too

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21 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh? What models are needed for that?

But also I don't like all the crews that can summon that much. I made a whole thread about it 😜

She needs minako and something to create shadows preferably so ototo. Although can do with with scrap but that requires 12s then.

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2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I do think there should be some awesome stuff to do with Cryptologists in the faction. It'd be a bit weird to have a TN that requires a 9, and then have nothing to do with it other than draw a card...

Well they go with Wastrel and let you gain fast with then.

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2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree summons should all have summon upgrades, but it'd be a bit weird to do it for Meredith and not for all summons.

I'm agree with this, but whilst they fix in other summoners they can do It too in cadmus.

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So, partly as devil's advocate and partly because the data is more or less available now

It doesn't seem like Explorers dominated either of the latest Vassal events as they were predicted to do

So we've got games from Plaag, who wins most of his games anyway, winning with Cadmus 

But the evidence from the tournament tells a different story about the power level to the claims of outright broken that are being thrown around 

For clarity, whilst I don't have an issue with them personally I do feel if there is a real proven issue that it absolutely should get changed, but I'm not sure the claims being put forward can really be backed up currently. Plaag winning games, whilst I appreciate the effort going in, isn't a surprise. And it seems in the hands of the rest of the community they perform at a similar level to the other factions? They seem to be spread pretty evenly throughout the field of both events 

(Not trying to say anyone is right or wrong as to me, 2 events isn't enough data to prove anything, although more substantial than just Plaags games, but I think it's potentially a more positive light on the faction balance given the results that have come through)

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1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

So, partly as devil's advocate and partly because the data is more or less available now

It doesn't seem like Explorers dominated either of the latest Vassal events as they were predicted to do

So we've got games from Plaag, who wins most of his games anyway, winning with Cadmus 

But the evidence from the tournament tells a different story about the power level to the claims of outright broken that are being thrown around 

For clarity, whilst I don't have an issue with them personally I do feel if there is a real proven issue that it absolutely should get changed, but I'm not sure the claims being put forward can really be backed up currently. Plaag winning games, whilst I appreciate the effort going in, isn't a surprise. And it seems in the hands of the rest of the community they perform at a similar level to the other factions? They seem to be spread pretty evenly throughout the field of both events 

(Not trying to say anyone is right or wrong as to me, 2 events isn't enough data to prove anything, although more substantial than just Plaags games, but I think it's potentially a more positive light on the faction balance given the results that have come through)

ok-data from tournaments tells that colette is a common master, but why colette need to be nerfed? i didnt see any other good colette players and tournaments tells us that its all ok

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10 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

But the evidence from the tournament tells a different story about the power level to the claims of outright broken that are being thrown around 

Isn't Nexus currently at eight wins out of nine games with the only loss being to Dreamer? Cadmus seems to have by far the highest win percentage out of keywords that have been played more than two times. Or am I misreading the data somehow?

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12 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

It doesn't seem like Explorers dominated either of the latest Vassal events as they were predicted to do

I think the people are complaining about Cadmus no entire faction. So this is not really relevant.

The big problem with cadmus is if you play competitive or friendly. And if you are a player who like to play the stongest combination and if there is no much than rivals can do against that, the people get frustrated

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I'm going by the results page so I couldn't tell you what masters we're used, it just seemed like more positive news which I thought was great 

As I said if it's an actual issue I would rather it was changed, and whilst I'm definitely in the we need more evidence and time camp I can appreciate everyone's point of view 

I've seen claims in discord and messenger that multiple EXS masters are broken so I'm glad to see that so far the data doesn't back that up. 

20 minutes ago, Plaag said:

ok-data from tournaments tells that colette is a common master, but why colette need to be nerfed? i didnt see any other good colette players and tournaments tells us that its all ok

Colette has definitely caused problems here in the UK tournament scene (when it was for actual in person events) and has proven over a sustained period of time across 2 different GG that she has too good of a toolkit currently so in my opinion if she were to get nerfed I would feel that's justified based on the data, I won't comment on your claim you're the only good Colette player in the world as I'm sure that's just your online typing as you seem like a nice guy to play in your videos even if that doesn't always come across well on here haha

 

16 minutes ago, belorey said:

The big problem with cadmus is if you play competitive or friendly. And if you are a player who like to play the stongest combination and if there is no much than rivals can do against that, the people get frustrated

I 100% get that. And I'm not arguing anyone is wrong, I'm just trying to look at the big picture and present a different view 

I still think regardless of slight imbalances Malifaux is massively in favour of skill over tools. If the imbalance is not slight then that can be an issue which absolutely should be dealt with but it's whether that can be justified or proven yet which I'm not sure about

 

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1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

I'm going by the results page so I couldn't tell you what masters we're used, it just seemed like more positive news which I thought was great 

As I said if it's an actual issue I would rather it was changed, and whilst I'm definitely in the we need more evidence and time camp I can appreciate everyone's point of view 

I've seen claims in discord and messenger that multiple EXS masters are broken so I'm glad to see that so far the data doesn't back that up.

I was looking at this: https://public.tableau.com/profile/malifaux.world.series#!/vizhome/MalifauxWorldSeries2020-2021_16075309651830/DominantMastersPerFaction

From there it looks like, aside from Cadmus, Jedza has only one game (a win), and Syndicate hasn't been played at all. The rest of the Explorers have been played a bit but not to any remarkable amount of success. So yeah, based on this (very limited though it may be), Cadmus is a problem and we don't know about Seekers (or Syndicate but I would be very surprised if they were indeed problematic).

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33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I was looking at this: https://public.tableau.com/profile/malifaux.world.series#!/vizhome/MalifauxWorldSeries2020-2021_16075309651830/DominantMastersPerFaction

From there it looks like, aside from Cadmus, Jedza has only one game (a win), and Syndicate hasn't been played at all. The rest of the Explorers have been played a bit but not to any remarkable amount of success. So yeah, based on this (very limited though it may be), Cadmus is a problem and we don't know about Seekers (or Syndicate but I would be very surprised if they were indeed problematic).

Thats a really interesting page! 

As you say fairly limited currently but if we get this level of info over a few more events it'll definitely paint a great picture from a data perspective 

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3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Isn't Nexus currently at eight wins out of nine games with the only loss being to Dreamer? Cadmus seems to have by far the highest win percentage out of keywords that have been played more than two times. Or am I misreading the data somehow?

Nexus lost to Jedza in the last round, so the data isn't fully up to date.

But yeah, Nexus seems to be crushing it (although note it may only be like 3 people playing Nexus and maybe they would crush anyone).

I laid out several factors a page or two back, and I think across the board Nexus seems too powerful at this early stage.

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5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Nexus lost to Jedza in the last round, so the data isn't fully up to date.

But yeah, Nexus seems to be crushing it (although note it may only be like 3 people playing Nexus and maybe they would crush anyone).

I laid out several factors a page or two back, and I think across the board Nexus seems too powerful at this early stage.

It's missing at least 2 games, that one and a game against Lord Cooper.

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2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I was looking at this: https://public.tableau.com/profile/malifaux.world.series#!/vizhome/MalifauxWorldSeries2020-2021_16075309651830/DominantMastersPerFaction

From there it looks like, aside from Cadmus, Jedza has only one game (a win), and Syndicate hasn't been played at all. The rest of the Explorers have been played a bit but not to any remarkable amount of success. So yeah, based on this (very limited though it may be), Cadmus is a problem and we don't know about Seekers (or Syndicate but I would be very surprised if they were indeed problematic).

jedza and ivan coming next after cadmus op

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Here is my take away from the thread so far. There are a few possibilities about the state of Cadmus

1 He is totally broken. I just can't play him well, and so haven't seen it yet. (Not impossible there are some masters I do not gel with, so even when everyone else was getting them to perform I just could not)

2 A certain subset of the Cadmus list is broken. This is still a large problem, as competitively this will become the list, but until you've seen this combination it is not overpowered. This may be the case here, I'm trying to work out if it is a combination of the list durability and ability to prevent it being stopped in a combination of We are Legion, Healing, Summoning, Take the hit and Flush with cash for the durability and The will of Cadmus for its abilty to score even whilst you are trying to stop it.  So in answer to Plaag it would be easy to fix the power level of the dreamer, his power is in a  combination of the summoning and the deck manipulation. Remove either the summoning or Lucid dreams and the Dreamer is underpowered.  Increase the fragility the dreamer, and he is underpowered. There are other ways, such as nerfing stitched, but whilst the dreamer is a crew of complex interactions, by working out which are problems you can work out how to reduce  the power level of the whole to an acceptable amount. 

3 I have a higher threshold of Broken than other people. We could be seeing Cadmus as the the same power level, but I am less upset by the differences in that level to other crews. 

4 It is a tough crew to face, and most people haven't yet had enough experience to learn how to unpick it. It is a lot easier to learn to play a crew well than it is to learn to beat it. Its a top crew, but not unbeatable.

5 It is a weak crew once people learn how to face it, but that will take some time, and in a years time people will be asking for buffs.

 

Based on my experience with Cadmus, and the reports I have read, I would have put it at level 4, but I have a history of distrusting the echo chamber of the internet because what it says does not hold true in the games I play, and I don't know enough about the others in this thread to hold their judgement over my own. (I know Plaag know how to play and I'm sure he is a very good player, but his opinions on models are too binary for me to fully believe what he says just because he says it. And several others here have said they haven't actually played with or against yet, so whilst they are valid opinions to hold its not enough to sway me)

A lot of my cadmus experience was where I played both sides, so if I miss something, I miss something, but for a lot of crews that has shown me information that corroborates what I see when I face other people, so its not completely flawed. Some of it was GG0. 

 

The February Vassel seems to have had 1 explorer with a 100% record, who came 3rd in their pool, and each pool had only 2 in the top 10 (I think, Bag of tricks is not very clear on the difference between the colours for various factions). That's certainly not a case of them being completely dominant.  I have no idea who played what, and with the colour confusion I can't really work out how many explorers players there were and what the overall outcome of explorers games was, but I don't see that as evidence that it is over powered (Of course, from the data Math shows, it seems like Cadmus was one of the most picked masters and very successful when run, so its certainly possible that lots of the explorer players are currently just trying all masters and if they stick to just Cadmus that you will see them crowd out the top of events, but its not a certainty)

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17 minutes ago, Adran said:

Here is my take away from the thread so far. There are a few possibilities about the state of Cadmus

1 He is totally broken. I just can't play him well, and so haven't seen it yet. (Not impossible there are some masters I do not gel with, so even when everyone else was getting them to perform I just could not)

2 A certain subset of the Cadmus list is broken. This is still a large problem, as competitively this will become the list, but until you've seen this combination it is not overpowered. This may be the case here, I'm trying to work out if it is a combination of the list durability and ability to prevent it being stopped in a combination of We are Legion, Healing, Summoning, Take the hit and Flush with cash for the durability and The will of Cadmus for its abilty to score even whilst you are trying to stop it.  So in answer to Plaag it would be easy to fix the power level of the dreamer, his power is in a  combination of the summoning and the deck manipulation. Remove either the summoning or Lucid dreams and the Dreamer is underpowered.  Increase the fragility the dreamer, and he is underpowered. There are other ways, such as nerfing stitched, but whilst the dreamer is a crew of complex interactions, by working out which are problems you can work out how to reduce  the power level of the whole to an acceptable amount. 

3 I have a higher threshold of Broken than other people. We could be seeing Cadmus as the the same power level, but I am less upset by the differences in that level to other crews. 

4 It is a tough crew to face, and most people haven't yet had enough experience to learn how to unpick it. It is a lot easier to learn to play a crew well than it is to learn to beat it. Its a top crew, but not unbeatable.

5 It is a weak crew once people learn how to face it, but that will take some time, and in a years time people will be asking for buffs.

 

Based on my experience with Cadmus, and the reports I have read, I would have put it at level 4, but I have a history of distrusting the echo chamber of the internet because what it says does not hold true in the games I play, and I don't know enough about the others in this thread to hold their judgement over my own. (I know Plaag know how to play and I'm sure he is a very good player, but his opinions on models are too binary for me to fully believe what he says just because he says it. And several others here have said they haven't actually played with or against yet, so whilst they are valid opinions to hold its not enough to sway me)

A lot of my cadmus experience was where I played both sides, so if I miss something, I miss something, but for a lot of crews that has shown me information that corroborates what I see when I face other people, so its not completely flawed. Some of it was GG0. 

 

The February Vassel seems to have had 1 explorer with a 100% record, who came 3rd in their pool, and each pool had only 2 in the top 10 (I think, Bag of tricks is not very clear on the difference between the colours for various factions). That's certainly not a case of them being completely dominant.  I have no idea who played what, and with the colour confusion I can't really work out how many explorers players there were and what the overall outcome of explorers games was, but I don't see that as evidence that it is over powered (Of course, from the data Math shows, it seems like Cadmus was one of the most picked masters and very successful when run, so its certainly possible that lots of the explorer players are currently just trying all masters and if they stick to just Cadmus that you will see them crowd out the top of events, but its not a certainty)

I will take option 4. final answer

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I think it is a combination of 2 and 4.

For regular Cadmus, I think he appears broken but probably is just very strong.

For Plaag's Cadmus list, I think played correctly it is probably unbeatable in too many pools. I'm not convinced it is unbeatable in EVERY pool, although our time zones don't line up very well so I'm not sure I'll get a chance to play him.

In regards to point 3, it is almost certainly true, but probably not true for everyone. I'm curious what your top picks for nerfs would be at the moment, @Adran? My top picks for nerfs at the moment are:

  • Cadmus list (whether the keyword itself or Emissary & FWC)
    • Tentative/subject to change
  • Colette
  • Molly & Kirai

I of course acknowledge that I haven't played against Cadmus yet, but I have at least examined the evidence presented here pretty thoroughly (have watched 5+ hours of videos I think). And note I started this thread thinking it was too early for a Cadmus nerf, and being critical of the play of Plaag's opponents.

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On 2/27/2021 at 12:58 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

Reva player lost so hard that he decided to switch away from Malifaux to Infinity since he didn't see any point in playing competitive play with the Explorers around.

Ouch. Have they not been playing Malifaux long? Seems like a bit of an overreaction, especially taking Reva against a top-tier master. While she is much better than before, she and her keyword are still low-mid at best. 

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