Nexus: An NPE like no other

[Kharnage]

 

 

Here is a battle report of my Nekima into Nexus. For this game, I tried to take a strong lure effect (Wrath's Bring It!, Since the +2 can overpower the unhelpfully low Mv Cadmus has) as the previous 3 games into Nexus demonstrate to me that Nekima or Matures diving into the ball results in death by the end of turn. It uh... Didn't work. 

If you don't want to sit through 2.5 hours of salt, TLDR I lose on the master I'm famous for into a good player who's playing Nexus for the first time 0-6. It wasn't even close. And while I had a couple of unlucky moments, I wasn't getting demolished by cards, it was just straight up nothing I could do into the keyword.

This keyword is so unfairly overpowered, I would wager that I cannot hire or play my faction in any consistent way into a competent Nexus player and have a chance of winning. I haven't even managed so far to lose a game by less than 6 into Nexus. Give me Colette, give me Schtook, give me pre nerf Shen Long, but please God don't give me Nexus. It's to the point where I will just concede games into Nexus at select, so that way I can do something fun for those 2 hours instead. 

This keyword needs nerfs, and they need them now.

 

[Plaag]

forget to say abt totems-two models with from the shadow with combined hp 16+ htw and 2" melee range)) so balanced) i think they need combined hp 6+htw, 1" melee range

[Plaag]

and i need to say sorry-i used scheme marker to pre-measure with my emissary, but forget to remove it and i summoned through this marker on the 2 turn

[ShinChan]

I said it many times during the beta, nobody listen. @santaclaws01 (and someone else) slapped my booty twice with them while I was uncapable of scoring more than 2 points, between both games. They just got more stuff after that xD

It's not a surprise that with 4 games left to play of R1 of February's vassal event, 7 ES players are in the top 15 in one of the groups.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Can't wait to play against Nexus, should be interesting!

Although if the game is balanced around double masters, Nexus and ES might be a bit weaker? Does Nexus have any good double master partners?

Incidentally this is a reason I wish double masters weren't allowed, or were an optional variant instead of default. It'd be nice if balance was only around singles.

[Kharnage]

12 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Can't wait to play against Nexus, should be interesting!

Although if the game is balanced around double masters, Nexus and ES might be a bit weaker? Does Nexus have any good double master partners?

Incidentally this is a reason I wish double masters weren't allowed, or were an optional variant instead of default. It'd be nice if balance was only around singles.

I don't believe double masters is markedly stronger than single master builds. I played Nekima/Lilith in my local tourneys (because we're not afraid of DMH or multi master) and wish I had just played Nekima, and it's hard to argue that there are double masters with much more synergy than the only two masters in the game to share a keyword. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Can't wait to play against Nexus, should be interesting!

Although if the game is balanced around double masters, Nexus and ES might be a bit weaker? Does Nexus have any good double master partners?

Incidentally this is a reason I wish double masters weren't allowed, or were an optional variant instead of default. It'd be nice if balance was only around singles.

double masters are bad plan with nexus; sometimes u can take jedza as the second like molly in ressers, but nexus and jedza doesnt need additional masters; i think that strongest double masters combination are mei+toni, asami as second in tt, kirai and molly as second in ressers, nekima, titania, pandora in nevers as second masters

[Maniacal_cackle]

15 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I don't believe double masters is markedly stronger than single master builds. I played Nekima/Lilith in my local tourneys (because we're not afraid of DMH or multi master) and wish I had just played Nekima, and it's hard to argue that there are double masters with much more synergy than the only two masters in the game to share a keyword. 

I don't imagine Lilith adds a lot to a Nekima crew. The masters are very similar and don't cover each others weaknesses.

For Neverborn, Zoraida is the best second master IIRC. For Ressers, Kirai and Molly are pretty brutal. Zoraida would have been so much better than Wrath.

But second masters also offer tech picks - for example I could imagine teching in Seamus against Cadmus. He would be on 3 AP, but he can one shot most of the crew. Or McMourning ignoring hard to wound could be nice.

All that said, I'm not sure that double masters are necessarily an answer to ES. Just noting that we are playing a funky ruleset (especially this month), so all of the vassal series data doesn't fully apply to the official game.

EDIT: also note that I believe Molly and Kirai combo needs a nerf. So even if this combo can beat Nexus, Nexus might still warrant a nerf.

[Maniacal_cackle]

That said, I'll try to watch the video after work. Afterwords I may join in the call for a nerf xD

[farmoar]

so would it be a bad keyword to pick up, for local play? trying to avoid the NPE, and if Kharnage is losing this bad with models he knows inside out, its hard to think regular players would be having a good time playing against Cadmus

dang, they were 1 of 3 i was interested in in the ES

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, farmoar said:

so would it be a bad keyword to pick up, for local play? trying to avoid the NPE, and if Kharnage is losing this bad with models he knows inside out, its hard to think regular players would be having a good time playing against Cadmus

dang, they were 1 of 3 i was interested in in the ES

The current perception of ES in general is that they're overpowered, but that may be new faction syndrome.

I think Cadmus and Dua/Umbra are the most complained about, but Seeker may be up there too?

Overall I like how Adran put it: most factions have models/crews that range from a 3-9 on a power scale. ES have models/crews that mostly range from 6-9.

That said, keep in mind that Plaag (Kharnage's opponent) is literally a world champion. Kharnage is also a world reknown player. Their play experience may differ from yours.

But... Maybe make Cadmus your third crew 😜

If you're not the most skilled player, having a good crew doesn't make much difference. But if you're the best player in your meta and have Cadmus on top of that, you will crush everyone and everything.

[farmoar]

14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you're not the most skilled player, having a good crew doesn't make much difference. But if you're the best player in your meta and have Cadmus on top of that, you will crush everyone and everything.

got it, save it for the top table

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't imagine Lilith adds a lot to a Nekima crew. The masters are very similar and don't cover each others weaknesses.

For Neverborn, Zoraida is the best second master IIRC. For Ressers, Kirai and Molly are pretty brutal. Zoraida would have been so much better than Wrath.

But second masters also offer tech picks - for example I could imagine teching in Seamus against Cadmus. He would be on 3 AP, but he can one shot most of the crew. Or McMourning ignoring hard to wound could be nice.

All that said, I'm not sure that double masters are necessarily an answer to ES. Just noting that we are playing a funky ruleset (especially this month), so all of the vassal series data doesn't fully apply to the official game.

EDIT: also note that I believe Molly and Kirai combo needs a nerf. So even if this combo can beat Nexus, Nexus might still warrant a nerf.

what will u say after seamus will give u just 5 ss during the game because of cash or 7 def on emissary; or when morning with poison would gain parasite from meredith's rancid 

and lilith is like colette-she places models, very good playstyle

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Plaag said:

what will u say after seamus will give u just 5 ss during the game because of cash or 7 def on emissary; or when morning with poison would gain parasite from meredith's rancid 

and lilith is like colette-she places models, very good playstyle

I assume Lilith is the leader in the scenario (so your opponent has to plan around Barbaros), but is Nekima worth taking on top of Lilith? But of course Kharnage knows the keyword far better than me xD

Flush with cash can negate attacks, so never mind about Seamus xD McMourning doesn't poison himself out of keyword, so is no more vulnerable than any other model.

Emissar: Ressers are set up well to deal with it I think (precise, Ikiryo, disturbing story, but most of all Reap).

But I'll watch the video xD

Of course, Reap arguably needs a nerf and then there is no way (my) Ressers can beat these crews.

[Korrok]

What was the cadmus list? Can't bring up the video atm

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think the list is archivist, emissary, Mr Ngaatoro, Meredith, spelleater.

Started watching the video on a break and have to agree with one thing: ill omens +2 on archivist is stupidly good, especially considering the model would likely be playable even without it. Archivist feels OP, it is my top candidate for complaints at this early stage.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Anyone know what the schemes were? Recover evidence was the strategy, and I think I hear sabotage and vendetta and three others?

[Kharnage]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

Anyone know what the schemes were? Recover evidence was the strategy, and I think I hear sabotage and vendetta and three others?

They're in the video description, but 

Standard with Recover Evidence
Vendetta
Sabotage
Spread Them Out
Catch and Release
Let Them Bleed

[Trample]

Do you think Cadmus will hold up to gunlines? Something like a Dashel crew who can pepper them from range while throwing some chaff in their way as they advance perhaps? It seems like that might be a way to use their low movement against them, although there are only a few factions who can pull something like that off. I'm sure the emissary would slow that roll a bit though. That defense 7 is killer. 

I wonder too if Tara might be a decent answer to a crew like this. 

[Da Git]

Will try to give the video a watch, but IMO looks like you ran into a bad match-up with a bad pool. While I'm definitely not renowned like Kharnage or hugely experienced with Nephilim, I have had a decent few games with and against Cadmus and can safely say that trying to engage them generally ends in tears...
 

2 minutes ago, Trample said:

Do you think Cadmus will hold up to gunlines? Something like a Dashel crew who can pepper them from range while throwing some chaff in their way as they advance perhaps? It seems like that might be a way to use their low movement against them, although there are only a few factions who can pull something like that off. I'm sure the emissary would slow that roll a bit though. That defense 7 is killer. 

I wonder too if Tara might be a decent answer to a crew like this. 

My experiences with and against Cadmus is basically this ^

• Gunlines = good.
• Avoidance = decent, but probably not super fun for either player. Cadmus are fairly slow and bubbly, so I would have taken this approach with Nephilim. Sadly, the pool doesn't really allow it.
• Going in = prepare to become ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

I reckon Nephilim are a horrible choice into Cadmus because of this... Lilith maybe with her Hazardous auras, placement tricks and her totem's bow, but not Nekima... One of the best Neverborn models to go into Cadmus (and a lot of the slow Mv Explorers) is Mysterious Emissary. I had a game where I was basically wiped out turn 2 because of his Hungering Land markers' severe terrain and making me Staggered. Had another game facing a Dashel gunline and got slaughtered by mass shooting... wasn't fun!

Titania and Pandora would do much better IMO.

My 2c back seat malifaux-ing for what it's worth...

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

Will try to give the video a watch, but IMO looks like you ran into a bad match-up with a bad pool. While I'm definitely not renowned like Kharnage or hugely experienced with Nephilim, I have had a decent few games with and against Cadmus and can safely say that trying to engage them generally ends in tears...
 

My experiences with and against Cadmus is basically this ^

• Gunlines = good.
• Avoidance = decent, but probably not super fun for either player. Cadmus are fairly slow and bubbly, so I would have taken this approach with Nephilim. Sadly, the pool doesn't really allow it.
• Going in = prepare to become ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

I reckon Nephilim are a horrible choice into Cadmus because of this... Lilith maybe with her Hazardous auras, placement tricks and her totem's bow, but not Nekima... One of the best Neverborn models to go into Cadmus (and a lot of the slow Mv Explorers) is Mysterious Emissary. I had a game where I was basically wiped out turn 2 because of his Hungering Land markers' severe terrain and making me Staggered. Had another game facing a Dashel gunline and got slaughtered by mass shooting... wasn't fun!

Titania and Pandora would do much better IMO.

My 2c back seat malifaux-ing for what it's worth...

ok: u are playing nevers and u know your opp will take cadmus, what master will u take?) and nevers, arcanists dont have any good shooting; and it doesnt mean that u still cannt face with ivan, jedza, cooper or some other master; and abt nevers emissary-he deals no dmg and cadmus crew can take just 1-2 treasure map for any marker removal and deadly pursuit; it can be put on ngatooro, cos his bonus action sometimes doesnt work and he needs a deadly pursuit for good position

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just making my way through the first turn. Some thoughts.

Noting of course I have no idea what I'm talking about with Nephilim, but hoping hindsight is 20/20.

Would it have worked better if you charged your crew to the right instead of the left (right into the nest area?)

It seems like a worst case scenario for Cadmus is if the nests can't get within 12" of an enemy model or do anything useful all game.

Going right means you could have abused the building and hopped over, kiting the emissary and his aura. Only the archivist could keep up with you. Also then if you get parasite tokens, he can't drop scheme markers in useful spots when he obeys you. And of course you can get all the scheme marker schemes done over there (or bluff having them). And waiting to engage means you could build up your hand.

But maybe that is just the Molly in me, wanting to run from the big fights xD. I'll watch the rest of the video. But it seems like making Cadmus walk across the board is critical.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just making my way through the first turn. Some thoughts.

Noting of course I have no idea what I'm talking about with Nephilim, but hoping hindsight is 20/20.

Would it have worked better if you charged your crew to the right instead of the left (right into the nest area?)

It seems like a worst case scenario for Cadmus is if the nests can't get within 12" of an enemy model or do anything useful all game.

Going right means you could have abused the building and hopped over, kiting the emissary and his aura. Only the archivist could keep up with you. Also then if you get parasite tokens, he can't drop scheme markers in useful spots when he obeys you. And of course you can get all the scheme marker schemes done over there (or bluff having them). And waiting to engage means you could build up your hand.

But maybe that is just the Molly in me, wanting to run from the big fights xD. I'll watch the rest of the video. But it seems like making Cadmus walk across the board is critical.

cadmus can place, push, obey, lure-its not a problem to go to position that u need,  but if u will just kite nexus-u will give her time to make more summons and draw more good cards, i dont think that this is a good plan

[Adran]

I have not watched the video. 

I have played with and against Cadmus a few times, and I haven't had the same problems. But then I've never faced that Cadmus list.

What is it about that list that is "broken"? Is it restricted to a set combination of abilities mixed together? Or is there something that regardless of what Cadmus uses will always make it feel broken? And how much of it is the set matchup, its bad if Nekima has no chance against Cadmus, but is less bad if she just has a slim chance. 

And I'm slightly surprised to hear this is Plaags first game using Cadmus. Its certainly not a "first game" list, its a list that I think has seen plenty of refinement, so I assume, whilst he might not have run it before, he has faced it several times. ( That doesn't change wither or not it is broken, but I think the statement that it was a "first time Cadmus player" suggests it was some one that didn't know what the crew did, and based on discussions I have had with Plaag about Cadmus, I don't think that's true). 

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Plaag said:

what will u say after seamus will give u just 5 ss during the game because of cash or 7 def on emissary; or when morning with poison would gain parasite from meredith's rancid 

Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean you can stop his attack with Flush with Cash and so Seamus just gains 5 ss over the game (Which you can but why have you targeted that model 5 times with just Seamus?) Or do you mean that you get the soulstone for Cadmus from the models Seamus killed, which can also be true, but its worth pointing out that if he targets a model and they transfer damage to an eyes and ears, Seamus does not kill that eyes and ears, so you don't get soulstone for it.