Nexus: An NPE like no other

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I have not watched the video. 

I have played with and against Cadmus a few times, and I haven't had the same problems. But then I've never faced that Cadmus list.

What is it about that list that is "broken"? Is it restricted to a set combination of abilities mixed together? Or is there something that regardless of what Cadmus uses will always make it feel broken? And how much of it is the set matchup, its bad if Nekima has no chance against Cadmus, but is less bad if she just has a slim chance. 

And I'm slightly surprised to hear this is Plaags first game using Cadmus. Its certainly not a "first game" list, its a list that I think has seen plenty of refinement, so I assume, whilst he might not have run it before, he has faced it several times. ( That doesn't change wither or not it is broken, but I think the statement that it was a "first time Cadmus player" suggests it was some one that didn't know what the crew did, and based on discussions I have had with Plaag about Cadmus, I don't think that's true). 

i have played against cadmus maybe 2 times but have never played with cadmus before by myself

and after game i think that it was easier than playing dreamer and have much more options, and dreamer playstyle: just walk with all your models to an enemy and kill him by great amount of duels

cadmus make more duels than any keyword now and opp cannt pass all of them, but when model gained parasite- it is already dead

[santaclaws01]

21 minutes ago, Adran said:

"first time Cadmus player" suggests it was some one that didn't know what the crew did

No one who runs cadmus for the first time is going to be using the crew to it's best, it's incredible easy to forget about or miss stuff in the early games. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean you can stop his attack with Flush with Cash and so just gain 5 ss over the game (Which you can but why have you targeted that model 5 times with just Seamus?) Or do you mean that you get the soulstone for Cadmus from the models Seamus killed, which can also be true, but its worth pointing out that if he targets a model and they transfer damage to an eyes and ears, Seamus does not kill that eyes and ears, so you don't get soulstone for it. 

just give emissary cash and stand with your key models near him-seamus will be useless: he will give u stone or defence if he has 13 in his hand

 or other situation-u give 2 cash to models like archivist and spelleater and take emissary to save other models

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

No one who runs cadmus for the first time is going to be using the crew to it's best, it's incredible easy to forget about or miss stuff in the early games. 

thats why i played very slow and sometimes kharnage remind me abt some abilities of my midels, thanks to him

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Plaag said:

just give emissary cash and stand with your key models near him-seamus will be useless: he will give u stone or defence if he has 13 in his hand

 or other situation-u give 2 cash to models like archivist and spelleater and take emissary to save other models

Did we ever get the FAQ on becoming the target? I was under the opinion that this doesn't work. You can't take the hit and then use flush with cash on the model with Take the hit, because Seamus never targeted the emissary, the emissary just became the target. I know I've discussed a similar thing somewhere a while ago, but I can't remember where, or with whom, and if there was a formal resolution. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Did we ever get the FAQ on becoming the target? I was under the opinion that this doesn't work. You can't take the hit and then use flush with cash on the model with Take the hit, because Seamus never targeted the emissary, the emissary just became the target. I know I've discussed a similar thing somewhere a while ago, but I can't remember where, or with whom, and if there was a formal resolution. 

u still have second option-2 cashes and emissary without it

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, Plaag said:

u still have second option-2 cashes and emissary without it

True, it in itself is not the problem, but if I am right, it's at least one less tool they have. (I think it might have been a discussion on taking 2 terrified tests and why I don't think the rules support it, but I can't remember exactly, and there were conflicting views)

 Def 7 and Take the hit is a very tough combination. It does force you to be very compact around the emissary to keep the take the hit up (IT doesn't stop you moving the crew up, but you need to do it carefully to ensure that its kept up every activation or Seamus can strike at the right time). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Ugh, I have to acknowledge that We Are Legion being reducible by shielded seems... Like an oversight? But I'm sure it was caught in testing. It is just ridiculous.

For Emissary, I've not found it particularly problematic yet, but maybe that's just me being lucky enough to have the tools against it. It does seem stupidly powerful against melee/defense duel only crews (and you can tech it in anytime/you don't always know when you'll face it). EDIT: And I mean, if they had introduced it at stat 6 defense, would anyone have complained that it was useless?

5 hours ago, Plaag said:

cadmus can place, push, obey, lure-its not a problem to go to position that u need,  but if u will just kite nexus-u will give her time to make more summons and draw more good cards, i dont think that this is a good plan

Most of that doesn't let you go through a building, though. Going to the right side of the building means he can be a bit more picky about attacking you and have a lot more terrain to help him out. But I could be wrong, it is hard to say how these things would go.

And I definitely feel for Kharnage. Nekima got a nerf, and now stuff like Explorer's Society (which is clearly VERY strongly tuned) is introduced into the game. A lot of ES models feel like they match pre-nerf power of other crews/models.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also one thing about playing against ES is that they are hypersensitive to me mispositioning models.

Last game I mispositioned Dead Rider by about 1-2 inches (because I mispositioned Molly and needed to Ride With Me on her), and nearly lost the game for that one and a half mistakes.

ES seem to have such a strong "break LOS or die" thing going which is really brutal to deal with.

(Well, Cadmus and English Ivan at least).

[Thatguy]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

"break LOS or die"

This seems totally unfair to Explorers players. 

With Austera Twigge I'm sure there's a way to make this, "break LOS and die"

[SEV]

This is scary. 3 really good player tell us that Cadmus are broken... How can this happen?  I hope we won't have a Nexus winter... That would hurt the vassal tournament scene a lot.

[Cedar]

Small offtop - I'm currently watching the batrep and I've seen 2 small mistakes:

1. Flush with cash - you played it incorrectly - after determining initiative, the model with the upgrade may decide to discard up to 3 cards, then it draws cards up to full hand.

2. Rounding - according to the page 31 of rulebook:

 

So when there are 9 Cadmus models the Will of Cadmus has stat of 5 not 4.

 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Cedar said:

Small offtop - I'm currently watching the batrep and I've seen 2 small mistakes:

1. Flush with cash - you played it incorrectly - after determining initiative, the model with the upgrade may decide to discard up to 3 cards, then it draws cards up to full hand.

2. Rounding - according to the page 31 of rulebook:

 

So when there are 9 Cadmus models the Will of Cadmus has stat of 5 not 4.

 

thanks

1) my mistake, sorry

2) better for cadmus i think)

[farmoar]

9 hours ago, Adran said:

True, it in itself is not the problem, but if I am right, it's at least one less tool they have. (I think it might have been a discussion on taking 2 terrified tests and why I don't think the rules support it, but I can't remember exactly, and there were conflicting views)

 Def 7 and Take the hit is a very tough combination. It does force you to be very compact around the emissary to keep the take the hit up (IT doesn't stop you moving the crew up, but you need to do it carefully to ensure that its kept up every activation or Seamus can strike at the right time). 

I think it was pass a Terrifying check, then a model Takes the Hit or uses Protected, and whether or not there is another Terrifying check, but I could also be misremembering

 

[Da Git]

20 hours ago, Plaag said:

ok: u are playing nevers and u know your opp will take cadmus, what master will u take?) and nevers, arcanists dont have any good shooting; and it doesnt mean that u still cannt face with ivan, jedza, cooper or some other master; and abt nevers emissary-he deals no dmg and cadmus crew can take just 1-2 treasure map for any marker removal and deadly pursuit; it can be put on ngatooro, cos his bonus action sometimes doesnt work and he needs a deadly pursuit for good position

I hate to go with the old fall back and saviour of the faction, but I reckon Dreamer would be a good pick into ExSo. Exso are fairly weak against Wp, so that's always nice.

Against Cadmus, Dreamer has:

• Removing lots of weaks makes those simple duels a lot easier to pass
• Can probably out attrition with great summons with armour and Incorp
• Everything can attack from range to avoid getting in close
• Chaff models that don't really care about getting parasites
• Cadmus has lots of low Wp, so Stitched can really shine against Husks & Nests
• They'll also struggle against Terrifying (Husks excepted)
• Can attack Df against Nexus
• Lots of ignore armour for anti Emissary (that attacks Wp to get around Df7)

Failing that Pandora might be ok, but Nexus doesn't really have high damage for her and Candy to steal...

[Plaag]

4 hours ago, Da Git said:

I hate to go with the old fall back and saviour of the faction, but I reckon Dreamer would be a good pick into ExSo. Exso are fairly weak against Wp, so that's always nice.

Against Cadmus, Dreamer has:

• Removing lots of weaks makes those simple duels a lot easier to pass
• Can probably out attrition with great summons with armour and Incorp
• Everything can attack from range to avoid getting in close
• Chaff models that don't really care about getting parasites
• Cadmus has lots of low Wp, so Stitched can really shine against Husks & Nests
• They'll also struggle against Terrifying (Husks excepted)
• Can attack Df against Nexus
• Lots of ignore armour for anti Emissary (that attacks Wp to get around Df7)

Failing that Pandora might be ok, but Nexus doesn't really have high damage for her and Candy to steal...

dreamer is one of the most op keywords in game if we are talking abt not explorers; we have best dreamer player in the world in russia-i tried several times to win but lose with my colette; its not possible at the moment to win good dreamer with arcanists; but nexus is stronger than dreamer

[Korrok]

I can't help but feel like nephilim was a poor choice going into cadmus. I understand it's a crew the player knows well, but my understanding of cadmus has always told me to avoid melee centric crews when going into them. Mentioned above was pandora and I honestly think she could do well here. Sure she can't copy "hard hitting" attacks but I do feel her crew is great at hitting cadmus where they are weakest, namely wp and taking their triggers away with mass stunned. Aversions can help deflect the typical cadmus dive models and her access to terrifying adds more hand pressure. The totem turns off the husks ruthless making them really struggle if they get in. Candy may be one of the few models I'd feel halfway comfortable putting near cadmus. Not to mention cadmus handing out pass tokens can set up mood swings which I feel could potentially mess with them hard because I think activation order matters to them. I only have three games piloting cadmus personally but blasts, Shockwaves, and general ranged attacks are what Id really not want to see coming in on me. 

[Vanilla_Dice]

Did anyone else notice that for the first 2 turns that cadmus drew almost nothingbut face cards? Surely that has some bearing on the outcome.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Korrok said:

I can't help but feel like nephilim was a poor choice going into cadmus. I understand it's a crew the player knows well, but my understanding of cadmus has always told me to avoid melee centric crews when going into them. Mentioned above was pandora and I honestly think she could do well here. Sure she can't copy "hard hitting" attacks but I do feel her crew is great at hitting cadmus where they are weakest, namely wp and taking their triggers away with mass stunned. Aversions can help deflect the typical cadmus dive models and her access to terrifying adds more hand pressure. The totem turns off the husks ruthless making them really struggle if they get in. Candy may be one of the few models I'd feel halfway comfortable putting near cadmus. Not to mention cadmus handing out pass tokens can set up mood swings which I feel could potentially mess with them hard because I think activation order matters to them. I only have three games piloting cadmus personally but blasts, Shockwaves, and general ranged attacks are what Id really not want to see coming in on me. 

i think cadmus doesnt matter abt any atacks with emissary, shielded and split dmg with we are legion

[Maniacal_cackle]

16 minutes ago, Korrok said:

I can't help but feel like nephilim was a poor choice going into cadmus.

Well, it is tricky since you declare crews simultaneously. Should you just never declare Nekima into ES? That said, there's always a bit of an issue of bad matchups, so it does come up.

14 minutes ago, Vanilla_Dice said:

Did anyone else notice that for the first 2 turns that cadmus drew almost nothingbut face cards? Surely that has some bearing on the outcome.

From memory, that was due to hand sculpting (you can draw an extra 8 cards a turn if need be). EDIT: Once only, of course! Flush with cash is once per game per minion.

[Korrok]

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, it is tricky since you declare crews simultaneously. Should you just never declare Nekima into ES? That said, there's always a bit of an issue of bad matchups, so it does come up.

In this case I believe it was all chosen with the information made available before hand? If that's so then it feels to me like an extreme example of the situation put in cadmus' favor from the beginning. I'm not saying cadmus doesn't potentially have some over tuned things, but I feel this particular match up dident apply pressure on cadmus where they are weakest to see if they buckle or not. As for whether or not you chose nekima into explorers or not really depends. There's other horrible match ups that exist out there that I'd call just as bad or worse than nekima into cadmus. Doing your best to try to avoid them I feel is just another aspect of the game. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, Korrok said:

In this case I believe it was all chosen with the information made available before hand? If that's so then it feels to me like an extreme example of the situation put in cadmus' favor from the beginning. I'm not saying cadmus doesn't potentially have some over tuned things, but I feel this particular match up dident apply pressure on cadmus where they are weakest to see if they buckle or not. As for whether or not you chose nekima into explorers or not really depends. There's other horrible match ups that exist out there that I'd call just as bad or worse than nekima into cadmus. Doing your best to try to avoid them I feel is just another aspect of the game. 

Oh, for sure, I don't think this is necessarily demonstrative of a need for a nerf (and I think Kharnage may be on tilt, as he fully admits he is quite salty about it all).

Though Cadmus seems pretty nuts! Can't wait to play against them.

[Cedar]

50 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, it is tricky since you declare crews simultaneously. Should you just never declare Nekima into ES? That said, there's always a bit of an issue of bad matchups, so it does come up.

TBH I would never pick Nephilim into ES, as not only Cadmus is a problem but Seekers too - your models take damage from Inevability of Death or trigger enemy chronicles simply by activating.

[aladino]

7 hours ago, Da Git said:

I hate to go with the old fall back and saviour of the faction, but I reckon Dreamer would be a good pick into ExSo. Exso are fairly weak against Wp, so that's always nice.

Against Cadmus, Dreamer has:

• Removing lots of weaks makes those simple duels a lot easier to pass
• Can probably out attrition with great summons with armour and Incorp
• Everything can attack from range to avoid getting in close
• Chaff models that don't really care about getting parasites
• Cadmus has lots of low Wp, so Stitched can really shine against Husks & Nests
• They'll also struggle against Terrifying (Husks excepted)
• Can attack Df against Nexus
• Lots of ignore armour for anti Emissary (that attacks Wp to get around Df7)

Failing that Pandora might be ok, but Nexus doesn't really have high damage for her and Candy to steal...

Well explorer has vernon and welles vs wp crews/master, I tried ivan vs dreamer and was super hard for the dreamer thanks to lot of concealment and vernon.
Probably Vernon would fit well also in a nexus crew.

[katadder]

TBH for neverborn into explorers I am picking one of 3 masters, titania, pandora or dreamer (maybe zoraida). If as Kharnage says they use DMH you also have collodi who is beyond broken.

taking a melee centric nephilim crew into cadmus (or seeker as pointed out) is just asking to die, almost to prove a point so it can be posted everywhere.

Yes an opponent can take treasure maps against titania (or neverborn) but supposedly they are also taking 2 flush with cash too so thats 8ss on upgrades. still only a couple of markers removed and not doing other stuff, then the crew is slowed down in general and possible hazardous.

Pandora can make use of her activation control if close enough, plus things like the box opens, fears given form etc are really going to hurt those totems, then once in the middle of the crew, stunned turns off half the parasite givers and that leaves just nexus himself. pushing models half their move doesnt help them. grasping tentacles may even have some use as well.

there is alot of salt about explorers in general. One thing I have noticed is they play very differently to the original 7, so you cant just take your standard playstyle and models into them. I actually think leaders like wong, rasputina and sonnia may have more play here, these are traditionally seen as weaker masters but would certainly do better than nekima IMO.