Nexus: An NPE like no other

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

The fact problems weren't fixed earlier is as it is.  I think we should fix them now.

I absolutely respect people who like their components to be shiny and nice, but here I think there's larger concerns.  It's a reason not to willy-nilly adjust models +1 DF or -1 WP or something, but for major changes, well, it's an order off DriveThruCards. 

I agree that is sensible for errata (and why Wyrd would ideally be willing to), but if they had done that with an open beta, that'd have been potentially most of a faction needing replacing.

10 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Didn't Wyrd end that service? At least I haven't been able to find their cards there anymore but it's entirely possible I missed something.

I thought it was Wargame Vault?

[Math Mathonwy]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I thought it was Wargame Vault?

Apparently you are correct! I could've sworn that it used to be Drivethroughcards but I dunno.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Apparently you are correct! I could've sworn that it used to be Drivethroughcards but I dunno.

Maybe it was! I'm an M3E player, so only know the M3E site xD

As for Cadmus, would definitely like to see a nerf, although probably directed at Archivist and/or Ngaatoro. Those are the two that are seeing play in basically every crew (although that could be a popularity thing, since a lot of the top players run the combo, so everyone runs the combo because the top players do?)

[RisingPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree that is sensible for errata (and why Wyrd would ideally be willing to), but if they had done that with an open beta, that'd have been potentially most of a faction needing replacing.

I thought it was Wargame Vault?

I'm a cheapass who prints cards off a laser jet so I dunno

As for the way to do things, what Wyrd should have done is water under the bridge.  For new masters, Wyrd should absolutely do an open beta before printing the cards (especially with lead times on models what they are) but we can only deal with the situation we have now right now. 

In other words, we can't recriminate about "should have beens", I think the way forward is to make ES 'not tournament legal' until 2022, and use this year as an open beta period. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I'm a cheapass who prints cards off a laser jet so I dunno

As for the way to do things, what Wyrd should have done is water under the bridge.  For new masters, Wyrd should absolutely do an open beta before printing the cards (especially with lead times on models what they are) but we can only deal with the situation we have now right now. 

In other words, we can't recriminate about "should have beens", I think the way forward is to make ES 'not tournament legal' until 2022, and use this year as an open beta period. 

That's quite extreme, especially for people who have purchased ES models.

Most of ES is fine (like Sand Worm seems quite okay).

Although I've yet to lose a game to ES I think (except when playing ES), so maybe my perception is skewed.

Plus I imagine Wyrd would be way more likely to errata than ban.

Unless you're suggesting a community ban for vassal series. Which I guess kinda works - it makes as much sense as a double masters ban I suppose.

[katadder]

24 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

 

In other words, we can't recriminate about "should have beens", I think the way forward is to make ES 'not tournament legal' until 2022, and use this year as an open beta period. 

yeah, thats not going to happen, the models are being released and we have them all on vassal, the book is out also, fully printed, plus cards so people would not be happy if the entire faction changes after they put money into it

[Filox]

33 minutes ago, katadder said:

yeah, thats not going to happen, the models are being released and we have them all on vassal, the book is out also, fully printed, plus cards so people would not be happy if the entire faction changes after they put money into it

It's normal in this kind of hobby. Warhammer players might be running good list and bang! New codex or supplement and here is your half of paycheck going into minis. As a Guild Player I would love to get faction overhaul

[RisingPhoenix]

I don't see any evidence that things are so bad you have to "change the entire faction."   I'd say you have to tweak at most 25% of the models, and I doubt it will come to the level of "completely change them."  At most you might have to rework one keyword.

I'd rather Wyrd keeps taking risks and making interesting designs, but part of taking risks is that they're risky.  You could print completely balanced vanilla beaters and shooters all day, but if you go for something wyrd, sometimes you get something broken.  If we acknowledge that and fix it, we get an interesting design that makes the game more fun when you bump into it.

[Corwin]

I am middle of the pack player who has yet to face Cadmus. I've read the forums about it though I tend to take online chat with a grain of salt until I get to experience it myself. Luckily for me I'll be playing Plaag tomorrow so I can face it first hand and see if it is as bad as it is made out to be. It is going to be interesting and I don't expect to do great but I'm looking forward to seeing it in action. 

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Corwin said:

I am middle of the pack player who has yet to face Cadmus. I've read the forums about it though I tend to take online chat with a grain of salt until I get to experience it myself. Luckily for me I'll be playing Plaag tomorrow so I can face it first hand and see if it is as bad as it is made out to be. It is going to be interesting and I don't expect to do great but I'm looking forward to seeing it in action. 

Good luck! And let us know your thoughts afterwards!

[farmoar]

I guess I am just disappointed that they are such an NPE. I was looking to get back into Malifaux with the Explorers Society, specifically 3 Masters:
Lord Cooper - neat idea, big damage gun, big-ass dinosaur
Jedza - amazing looking models
Nexus - love the hivemind idea

and now the Surveyors are hidden in another core box, and Cadmus is an NPE. Great for top-level play, but terrible for anything under that.

also, just looking at the cards, you can tell Cadmus is at least S-tier (normal Dreamer, Von Schtook, Colette, etc level). but when you put some of the other abilities they can get (Flush With Cash and some out of keyword models) they quickly jump above S-tier

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, farmoar said:

I guess I am just disappointed that they are such an NPE. I was looking to get back into Malifaux with the Explorers Society, specifically 3 Masters:
Lord Cooper - neat idea, big damage gun, big-ass dinosaur
Jedza - amazing looking models
Nexus - love the hivemind idea

and now the Surveyors are hidden in another core box, and Cadmus is an NPE. Great for top-level play, but terrible for anything under that.

also, just looking at the cards, you can tell Cadmus is at least S-tier (normal Dreamer, Von Schtook, Colette, etc level). but when you put some of the other abilities they can get (Flush With Cash and some out of keyword models) they quickly jump above S-tier

Yeah, I'm a bit in the same boat. Love Cadmus but don't think I'll be buying it until it is nerfed. Possibly not ever, since I can't see playing it in casual play.

Seeker I think I might pick up, but not sure. Definitely feels a bit NPE to have all those heals negated.

[Corwin]

On 3/6/2021 at 9:14 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Good luck! And let us know your thoughts afterwards!

So as expected the game went 7-0. I didn't really know what to bring vs Camdus so I brought my standard Lucius crew. My plan going in was to lure the Emissary away from the bubble and kill things with my mature nephilim. He placed  models in a way so that plan would have worked. He black jokered putting up the Emissary's aura and Meredith out of his take the hit range as well. Lucius' was able to shoot her twice missing the third. Here I messed up and didn't charge her with my Mature, who had two focus, forgetting he could charge when engaged. That was my last hope of the game. I forgot about  Will of Cadmus and didn't save cards to defend very the nests who were able to put a parasite token on Agent 46. By the end of turn two Agent 46 had one wound, his Emissary had 3 wounds, my scribe had 1, and a changeling, mature, my Lawyer were dead. I should have cheated to go first with a 13 but I wanted to use that to get an on your heels tigger on the Emissary. So he went first with the Emissary and ended up WAL to kill Agent 46. Using the 3 models I had left I managed to finally kill the Emissary the he wiped me off the table.

Having played vs it I think I could do a little bit better but by no means do I think I could change the outcome of that match. I think a heavy lure/obey crew might be able to do something vs it but that's just a theory. As the game digests a bit more I'll think more about it.

[Plaag]

4 hours ago, Corwin said:

So as expected the game went 7-0. I didn't really know what to bring vs Camdus so I brought my standard Lucius crew. My plan going in was to lure the Emissary away from the bubble and kill things with my mature nephilim. He placed  models in a way so that plan would have worked. He black jokered putting up the Emissary's aura and Meredith out of his take the hit range as well. Lucius' was able to shoot her twice missing the third. Here I messed up and didn't charge her with my Mature, who had two focus, forgetting he could charge when engaged. That was my last hope of the game. I forgot about  Will of Cadmus and didn't save cards to defend very the nests who were able to put a parasite token on Agent 46. By the end of turn two Agent 46 had one wound, his Emissary had 3 wounds, my scribe had 1, and a changeling, mature, my Lawyer were dead. I should have cheated to go first with a 13 but I wanted to use that to get an on your heels tigger on the Emissary. So he went first with the Emissary and ended up WAL to kill Agent 46. Using the 3 models I had left I managed to finally kill the Emissary the he wiped me off the table.

Having played vs it I think I could do a little bit better but by no means do I think I could change the outcome of that match. I think a heavy lure/obey crew might be able to do something vs it but that's just a theory. As the game digests a bit more I'll think more about it.

lure and obey is a weak weapon against it because against lure i have my own-e&e, and against obey i still can relent to def myself

[Cats Laughing]

5 hours ago, Plaag said:

lure and obey is a weak weapon against it because against lure i have my own-e&e, and against obey i still can relent to def myself

I'm sorry, can you elaborate on you relenting to obeys?  I'm not quite sure how relenting protects Cadmus from opponent's obeys (and you can't relent to opponents, iirc), so I'm confused by your statement.

 

I totally understand how you can use Eyes & Ears to Lure your own models back as defense against Lures, so it's just the obey comment that I'm not getting.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Cats Laughing said:

I'm sorry, can you elaborate on you relenting to obeys?  I'm not quite sure how relenting protects Cadmus from opponent's obeys (and you can't relent to opponents, iirc), so I'm confused by your statement.

 

I totally understand how you can use Eyes & Ears to Lure your own models back as defense against Lures, so it's just the obey comment that I'm not getting.

That confused me too, but then I assumed he meant obey Nexus' model to attack a friendly model, friendly model relents and takes basically nothing between shielded and WAL.

[Plaag]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That confused me too, but then I assumed he meant obey Nexus' model to attack a friendly model, friendly model relents and takes basically nothing between shielded and WAL.

yes

also cadmus models can relent against enemy models with parasite as i remember

[katadder]

54 minutes ago, Plaag said:

yes

also cadmus models can relent against enemy models with parasite as i remember

They can't as relenting says 2 friendly models in duels and though cadmus might see a guy with a parasite as friendly he doesn't see you as friendly so it's not 2 friendly models.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

They can't as relenting says 2 friendly models in duels and though cadmus might see a guy with a parasite as friendly he doesn't see you as friendly so it's not 2 friendly models.

2 friendly models in opposed duel, resisting model can choose to relent, so cadmus can relent against enemy with parasite because he is friendly to cadmus

[katadder]

2 minutes ago, Plaag said:

2 friendly models in opposed duel, resisting model can choose to relent, so cadmus can relent against enemy with parasite because he is friendly to cadmus

But the cadmus model is not friendly to the attacker so thus is not 2 friendly models. 

Relenting requires both models to be friendly to each other and you're not friendly to them so no relent.

 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

But the cadmus model is not friendly to the attacker so thus is not 2 friendly models. 

Relenting requires both models to be friendly to each other and you're not friendly to them so no relent.

 

relenting requires atacking model be friendly to defender, so relent works

[Maniacal_cackle]

Here's what the rules say:

Quote

If two friendly models are in an opposed duel, the resisting model may choose to relent before any cards are flipped. If it does, the relenting model (but not the acting model) skips Steps “A” through “D” below. The relenting model’s final duel total is treated as being the same as the acting model’s final duel total.

 

[katadder]

22 minutes ago, Plaag said:

relenting requires atacking model be friendly to defender, so relent works

As was pointed out with actual rules it says nothing about defender, it says 2 friendly models. 

Whilst cadmus may treat them as friendly it doesn't make them actually friendly, it's an unrequited love, only one way.

You can't relent with cadmus against models with parasite, they are still enemy models. 

For what it's worth page 26 tells you what a friendly model is,  its one hired into your crew, this never changes. A model with parasite may be classed as friendly but the models are still an enemy and a friend at best so not 2 friendly models 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

As was pointed out with actual rules it says nothing about defender, it says 2 friendly models. 

Whilst cadmus may treat them as friendly it doesn't make them actually friendly, it's an unrequited love, only one way.

You can't relent with cadmus against models with parasite, they are still enemy models. 

For what it's worth page 26 tells you what a friendly model is,  its one hired into your crew, this never changes. A model with parasite may be classed as friendly but the models are still an enemy and a friend at best so not 2 friendly models 

nexus up says that opp with parasite may be treated as friend(so pg 26 is not abt this situation, because card is higher than rule), so from one side u have friend and enemy, from other-2 friendly models, why model cannt relent

[katadder]

20 minutes ago, Plaag said:

nexus up says that opp with parasite may be treated as friend(so pg 26 is not abt this situation, because card is higher than rule), so from one side u have friend and enemy, from other-2 friendly models, why model cannt relent

because its not purely 2 friendlies, one side treats the other as an enemy. the enemy model you may treat as friendly but he doesnt treat you as such.

They are not friendly to each other, it's a one sided friendship so no 2 friendly models.

believe me, I'm right