Nexus: An NPE like no other

[Kharnage]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

On the subject of Cadmus, how are summoners doing? I know Dreamer lost, but I wonder about a sit back and summon style master like Kirai (or Dashel)?

 

Actually, the Lucid Dream engine works out pretty well into Cadmus. A replenishable front line that by turn 3 doesn't fail "or gain a parasite tokens" and can mindlessly dump 30+ damage into the network a turn. My game into a Nexus last month wasn't counted towards the overall stats of Nexus because of a tilt-out over time management, but it was quite arguably going my way already. 
But saying that Lucid Dream spam can deal with Nexus is like saying if the Romans just had thermonuclear power Rome wouldn't have been sacked. Sure, it's probably true, but for most folks, it's not really useful information.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Actually, the Lucid Dream engine works out pretty well into Cadmus. A replenishable front line that by turn 3 doesn't fail "or gain a parasite tokens" and can mindlessly dump 30+ damage into the network a turn. My game into a Nexus last month wasn't counted towards the overall stats of Nexus because of a tilt-out over time management, but it was quite arguably going my way already. 
But saying that Lucid Dream spam can deal with Nexus is like saying if the Romans just had thermonuclear power Rome wouldn't have been sacked. Sure, it's probably true, but for most folks, it's not really useful information.

Well, it matters a bit. It'd be weird if ES didn't have a master on par with Dreamer/Colette/etc.

Of course, if they nerf every S tier master except Cadmus that seems super bad.

And also my impression is that Cadmus is potentially better than all the S tier stuff even, which I think is a key argument for a nerf.

If Cadmus is just on par with the other best stuff, it is a lot harder to justify nerfing since there is still a chance counterplay will be innovated.

[Kharnage]

16 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If Cadmus is just on par with the other best stuff, it is a lot harder to justify nerfing since there is still a chance counterplay will be innovated.

I would argue true Lucid Dreamer is just as bad as current Nexus, and had Dreamer come out with the ES, I would be just as mad. He too is a braindead 2 turn win condition. The joy is that he's, you know, on the menu. Which is really the key here. The things that Nexus are able to compete with, or win out against, even, are already confirmed to be too strong. Rare is the individual sitting around thinking to themselves "What's the fuss with Schtook and Colette? They seem fine". They're waaay better than their compatriots. So is Nexus. Debatably more so. And from a pure fun perspective, I'd rather play into those masters in a heartbeat. That grimy feeling that Zoraida gives out when she takes your dudes, uses your focus, and ruins your position at least has the good sense to *end* when her activation's over. Nexus hands that to you, and it doesn't go away for the whole game. Worse still, they remind you nearly every activation until the sweet release of death takes you. That combines with their flat numbers strength to be the NPE Nexus truly is.

[katadder]

I think kirai would do well.

Again you have the summon options to throw away. Ikiriyo stops them passing damage around. Goryo have their decent attacks and a pulse damage against wp which is good into the faction. Then you have vengeance too so lots of extra stuff going on.

She also has jaakuna with a stat 7 lure which is highest in the game so can hopefully break up the bubble some.

[DonQOT]

It does seem like a lot of the complaint about Cadmus is not just that she is strong, but that she doesnt interact well with the other player. A lot of Cadmus abilities are none negotiable once they go off (i.e. I touched you, discard a card or I stick you with a parasite token you can never remove).

I kinda like that as part of Cadmus whole creeping doom schtick, but it probably doesn't feel great to have zero options to interact at that stage.

What about a change to her parasite tokens, maybe make them into a negative upgrade instead that gives either the affected model or friendly models the ability to discard the upgrade for an action. Still painful to get stuck with, but not game ending. Sometimes you let it stay because your actions are too precious to waste, but then your masters qbd heavy hitters can be safeguarded by keeping chaff around to pick the lice out of their hair.

Maybe not the only change to be made,for sure, but at least mitigating the NPE that this threads about.

[Plaag]

9 hours ago, Kharnage said:

I would argue true Lucid Dreamer is just as bad as current Nexus, and had Dreamer come out with the ES, I would be just as mad. He too is a braindead 2 turn win condition. The joy is that he's, you know, on the menu. Which is really the key here. The things that Nexus are able to compete with, or win out against, even, are already confirmed to be too strong. Rare is the individual sitting around thinking to themselves "What's the fuss with Schtook and Colette? They seem fine". They're waaay better than their compatriots. So is Nexus. Debatably more so. And from a pure fun perspective, I'd rather play into those masters in a heartbeat. That grimy feeling that Zoraida gives out when she takes your dudes, uses your focus, and ruins your position at least has the good sense to *end* when her activation's over. Nexus hands that to you, and it doesn't go away for the whole game. Worse still, they remind you nearly every activation until the sweet release of death takes you. That combines with their flat numbers strength to be the NPE Nexus truly is.

playing colette-u need to think all the time and losing key models hit u hard; but what i have seen playing nexus, dreamer, asami-just summon models and go to enemy side and he will die, nothing special

[Plaag]

8 hours ago, katadder said:

I think kirai would do well.

Again you have the summon options to throw away. Ikiriyo stops them passing damage around. Goryo have their decent attacks and a pulse damage against wp which is good into the faction. Then you have vengeance too so lots of extra stuff going on.

She also has jaakuna with a stat 7 lure which is highest in the game so can hopefully break up the bubble some.

kirai have only drowned for summon as good model

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, DonQOT said:

It does seem like a lot of the complaint about Cadmus is not just that she is strong, but that she doesnt interact well with the other player. A lot of Cadmus abilities are none negotiable once they go off (i.e. I touched you, discard a card or I stick you with a parasite token you can never remove).

I kinda like that as part of Cadmus whole creeping doom schtick, but it probably doesn't feel great to have zero options to interact at that stage.

What about a change to her parasite tokens, maybe make them into a negative upgrade instead that gives either the affected model or friendly models the ability to discard the upgrade for an action. Still painful to get stuck with, but not game ending. Sometimes you let it stay because your actions are too precious to waste, but then your masters qbd heavy hitters can be safeguarded by keeping chaff around to pick the lice out of their hair.

Maybe not the only change to be made,for sure, but at least mitigating the NPE that this threads about.

Personally I think parasite tokens should remain untouched. They're so much a part of the theme of the crew, and it makes sense that once you're infected you're stuck.

And honestly while the experience seems NPE, I think that it is just some of the specific synergies/builds that are overpowered, so I don't think an entire rework of the mechanics is warranted (although if that was on the table I'd say We Are Legion would be the thing to rework).

[Korrok]

 

 

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Personally I think parasite tokens should remain untouched. They're so much a part of the theme of the crew, and it makes sense that once you're infected you're stuck.

And honestly while the experience seems NPE, I think that it is just some of the specific synergies/builds that are overpowered, so I don't think an entire rework of the mechanics is warranted (although if that was on the table I'd say We Are Legion would be the thing to rework).

I agree with the sentiment that it's moreso the specific lists and such that are a problem moreso than the mechanics them self. The only thing with we are legion that I feel needs to happen is a clarification that you can't have multiple models pass off to one model in an activation. Sure I feel it reads pretty clearly that's not the intent but a clarification for everyone in a faq would be nice. I think the emmisarrys aura needs to be once per activation or even be changed to shielded instead of a heal. I also feel bumping the archivists cost up to 10 is a better solution than say nerfing him. He's a common ook pick so that helps make him less of a "duh"  choice. That also makes it so Mr N can't obey him for free suit wise. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Korrok said:

 

 

I agree with the sentiment that it's moreso the specific lists and such that are a problem moreso than the mechanics them self. The only thing with we are legion that I feel needs to happen is a clarification that you can't have multiple models pass off to one model in an activation. Sure I feel it reads pretty clearly that's not the intent but a clarification for everyone in a faq would be nice. I think the emmisarrys aura needs to be once per activation or even be changed to shielded instead of a heal. I also feel bumping the archivists cost up to 10 is a better solution than say nerfing him. He's a common ook pick so that helps make him less of a "duh"  choice. That also makes it so Mr N can't obey him for free suit wise. 

we are talking abt lists almost in keyword-i think this is more problem of keyword and versatiles models, not specific lists

[Math Mathonwy]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Personally I think parasite tokens should remain untouched. They're so much a part of the theme of the crew, and it makes sense that once you're infected you're stuck.

And honestly while the experience seems NPE, I think that it is just some of the specific synergies/builds that are overpowered, so I don't think an entire rework of the mechanics is warranted (although if that was on the table I'd say We Are Legion would be the thing to rework).

I think that it is important to note that NPE, though naturally very subjective, is still a thing that guides game design and NPE, even when not overpowering, can be something that needs looking into. For example, I believe the reason they took out Paralyzed Condition for M3e was due to how people found it very frustrating. Similarly, the changes to the playstyle of Brewmaster seem to be motivated by him having been really annoying in M2e though far, far from overpowered.

So even if Cadmus was nerfed to proper power levels but remained super annoying to play against that's not necessarily what Wyrd want at the end of the day.

[katadder]

6 hours ago, Plaag said:

kirai have only drowned for summon as good model

If you think that I think you have ever played a decent kirai player.

Although the more I see of your posts I just think you're bored at work and fishing by dropping controversial subjects 🤣🤣

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

If you think that I think you have ever played a decent kirai player.

Although the more I see of your posts I just think you're bored at work and fishing by dropping controversial subjects 🤣🤣

no-u just cannt summon model with kirai better then drowned

[Adran]

28 minutes ago, katadder said:

Although the more I see of your posts I just think you're bored at work and fishing by dropping controversial subjects 🤣🤣

<MOD HAT>

I find the forums work a lot better for functional discussion if we follow the polite assumption that the people we are talking with are stating what they believe to be true.

If you think that people aren't doing so, then I would say the best approach is not to provoke confrontation on the topics. Assigning other motivations to other peoples actions and then accusing them of doing so will quickly cause threads to derail and produce nothing of use. 

If you think people are posting deliberately controversial posts then please report the posts, and don't react to them. 

Insulting people is not something that we want to happen on these forums. 

 

[katadder]

29 minutes ago, Adran said:

<MOD HAT>

I find the forums work a lot better for functional discussion if we follow the polite assumption that the people we are talking with are stating what they believe to be true.

If you think that people aren't doing so, then I would say the best approach is not to provoke confrontation on the topics. Assigning other motivations to other peoples actions and then accusing them of doing so will quickly cause threads to derail and produce nothing of use. 

If you think people are posting deliberately controversial posts then please report the posts, and don't react to them. 

Insulting people is not something that we want to happen on these forums. 

 

Apologies  wasn't meant to be an insult as I do see people I know fishing sometimes by being controversial, it can also create debate. That comment came from so far out though that I made what was obviously a bad assumption.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Goryo seem like they'd be good against Cadmus:

• A bit tankier than Drowned (although lack of combat finesse is sad)
• Mark of vengeance to stop heals is pretty sweet
• Violent Ghosts are situationally very, very good.
• Projectile vomit on drowned is not at all good against We Are Legion.
• Goryo can abuse buildings, a useful tool against cadmus.

So while ordinarily Drowned are a great option, I can see using Goryo against cadmus. They also have a bigger base size, so can block off chokepoints. EDIT: Whoops, Goryo are incorporeal, so blocking off chokepoints is a bit more situational xD

[Plaag]

10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Goryo seem like they'd be good against Cadmus:

• A bit tankier than Drowned (although lack of combat finesse is sad)
• Mark of vengeance to stop heals is pretty sweet
• Violent Ghosts are situationally very, very good.
• Projectile vomit on drowned is not at all good against We Are Legion.
• Goryo can abuse buildings, a useful tool against cadmus.

So while ordinarily Drowned are a great option, I can see using Goryo against cadmus. They also have a bigger base size, so can block off chokepoints. EDIT: Whoops, Goryo are incorporeal, so blocking off chokepoints is a bit more situational xD

just one reptide marker can change the game; and with mask trigger it can be devastating

[farmoar]

you heard it here first. new errata for Kirai; she can only ever summon Drowned. if she summons anything else, you automatically lose due to shame

[Jesy Blue]

17 minutes ago, farmoar said:

you heard it here first. new errata for Kirai; she can only ever summon Drowned. if she summons anything else, you automatically lose due to shame

Oh, we're bringing back the old school Legend of the Five Rings lose due to dishonor rule.... nice!

[RisingPhoenix]

Something League of Legends does is they don't allow new champions in competitive play when they're new, so they can do aggressive balancing for them.  I think taking the same approach to the ES is very wise.

I thought when they previewed Winston Finnigan he was going to be on the high end of what the Explorer's Society can do.  An incredible model who helps define the faction.  Little did I know he'd be pretty middling in context. 

Oh and everyone who goes "oh, Nexus is super balanced, but I'm not going to play any games to prove it"? If you can't prove something is true on the table, then you're talking out your ass.

Also, can we just friggin do in card draw on summoners?  Period.  No more card draw on summoners, lets excise it from this edition.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Something League of Legends does is they don't allow new champions in competitive play when they're new, so they can do aggressive balancing for them.  I think taking the same approach to the ES is very wise.

I thought when they previewed Winston Finnigan he was going to be on the high end of what the Explorer's Society can do.  An incredible model who helps define the faction.  Little did I know he'd be pretty middling in context. 

Oh and everyone who goes "oh, Nexus is super balanced, but I'm not going to play any games to prove it"? If you can't prove something is true on the table, then you're talking out your ass.

Also, can we just friggin do in card draw on summoners?  Period.  No more card draw on summoners, lets excise it from this edition.

 

I'm not sure Nexus would have been classified as a 'summoner' in design stages anyway. Ivan is clearly the summoner of the faction, and is the one everyone focused on as the summoner at launch. It was just through iteration that people arrived at the conclusion that making Nexus the best summoner in the faction was the way to go.

I think the equivalent of what you're talking about for LoL is an open beta when it comes to wargames. However, that has a logistics issue, since the cards ship with the boxes, they have to lock in what cards are going with the boxes.

[RisingPhoenix]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'm not sure Nexus would have been classified as a 'summoner' in design stages anyway. Ivan is clearly the summoner of the faction, and is the one everyone focused on as the summoner at launch. It was just through iteration that people arrived at the conclusion that making Nexus the best summoner in the faction was the way to go.

I think the equivalent of what you're talking about for LoL is an open beta when it comes to wargames. However, that has a logistics issue, since the cards ship with the boxes, they have to lock in what cards are going with the boxes.

I do understand this, but in this day of free apps, online card downloads, and general huge digital presence, I think it's downright ridiculous to leave a "huge problem with the game" because of some pieces of paper.

[Maniacal_cackle]

15 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I do understand this, but in this day of free apps, online card downloads, and general huge digital presence, I think it's downright ridiculous to leave a "huge problem with the game" because of some pieces of paper.

Yeah, I'm not much of a card person either, but some of the local players are HUGE sticklers for having the right cards. So it makes a big difference to some people.

Also, I'm not sure how big a difference open beta would have made. Apparently all these issues were raised in playtesting as well xD

[RisingPhoenix]

19 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, I'm not much of a card person either, but some of the local players are HUGE sticklers for having the right cards. So it makes a big difference to some people.

Also, I'm not sure how big a difference open beta would have made. Apparently all these issues were raised in playtesting as well xD

The fact problems weren't fixed earlier is as it is.  I think we should fix them now.

I absolutely respect people who like their components to be shiny and nice, but here I think there's larger concerns.  It's a reason not to willy-nilly adjust models +1 DF or -1 WP or something, but for major changes, well, it's an order off DriveThruCards. 

[Math Mathonwy]

2 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

but for major changes, well, it's an order off DriveThruCards. 

Didn't Wyrd end that service? At least I haven't been able to find their cards there anymore but it's entirely possible I missed something.