Which would be your top Bayou models that you'd address in an upcoming errata?

[GrumpyGrandpa]

26 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

*sigh*

Great intro 😅 You shouldn't make forum posts if you don't want people to reply, mate. That is what blogs are for.

27 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I Georgy and Olaf on the other hand, most certainly can pick up 6 shots if they want to shockwave down the Bayou Gremlins.  And if they don't, that can pick up a penalty too.  It's certainly minimum 4, or they can't even kill two friggin models a turn. 

I'll have to disagree with you on this part. I don't believe you'll get into that situation every single turn in a game. It seems like a dream scenario. Does it happen during games? Sure, but not that often.

31 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Skeeters require a Gremlin Crier to make that action. It'll cost you a 9 to do so.

Or a 7 (because it's a 7).  Big Hat always has a 7 even if you miss the flip.

You're right on this one, true. But even then, it requires:

1. A fragile model to be in position for the marker
2. A Crier within 12 of the model, in position of the marker
3. Two Bayou Bash-models within 3 of the Crier, at the time of the action
4. A 7 to do the action (not something you always have, no. But yes, people will often save)

 Far from impossible, but also fair if you ask me.

35 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

You're clearly living in a world where everything is perfect, and the opponent basically just skips their turns, and allows you to do whatever you want.

...

I think we might just have to disagree on this one too, mate.

I also believe that Big Hat is a strong crew, with many advantages. However, I also believe that there are multiple disadvantages that can be exploited.

40 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Watch it being played by a master.  They are the worst.  They might be worse than Dreamer. 

Y'know, I hate Vassal, but you've motivated me.  I'm going to put in the reps, and put Big Hat on the map.  I'm not gonna let Jamie snicker away with his OP crews while people around here talk about Brewmaster and Ulix. 

Worse = Better, I assume? 

Either case, I think that is a really good idea. Not sure who "Jamie" is, but I've always felt that more empirical data is a good thing.

In the end, we are just two people disagreeing on something that should be rather easy to show. 

"Is X winning a lot, in competitive situations?" If yes, then how can we balance it?

[RisingPhoenix]

17 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Great intro 😅 You shouldn't make forum posts if you don't want people to reply, mate. That is what blogs are for.

Being depressed by the lack of quality in a reply is something different from not wanting to have a discussion. 

17 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

I'll have to disagree with you on this part. I don't believe you'll get into that situation every single turn in a game. It seems like a dream scenario. Does it happen during games? Sure, but not that often.

Again the situation is not that hard to get into.  And also the "dream scenario" is Big hat lost 2-4 models.   Remember, there's always the world where Big Hat doesn't lose any models.  That's not Big Hat's nightmare scenario. But lets lay out one.

Say you want to get to Georgy and Olaf.  You've read the card (because you're a smart cookie) and noted that damaging them makes them push 4" towards you.  Yes!  You're going to get them out of this bubble.  Unfortunately your opponent, being a smart cookie, has a Banjonista and a Bayou Gremlin in front of them blocking pushes.  You throw out a Mv 13 shockwave! 

The Bayou Gremlin goes, flips a 3, Bayou two cards, flips a 6.  Oof.  The Banjonista goes, flips a 2, Bayou Two cards, gets a 1.  Wow.  What horrid flips.  They both take 3 damage.  The So'mer player draws a card, pitches a 3, shoots your model.

Okay, now you just have to get the Banjonista.  You attack vs her Df 6, flip an 7.  She flips a 5, Bayou two cards, flips an 8.  You cheat, you kill her.  So'mer draws a card.  He pitches a 4.  Shoots you in the face.  She triggers Demise, there's now a Bayou Gremlin in front of Georgy and Olaf.  Now you shoot the bayou gremlin...

 

Oh but that'd be stupid!  You'd never do that!  Instead you'd charge Georgy and Olaf in the bubble and tie them up in melee so they can't take actions.  That'd be smart, right?  Can't shoot while engaged, So'mer has to pick a new Gremlin. 

 

Or maybe you go after Lennie.  Do you know how horrible that can get?  He's a Henchman, Df. 6, 10 wounds, hard to wound, and a Spit Hog can heal on average 5 points of health on any model on its turn by bapping it. 

So maybe you kill the Spit Hog...

 

Which of these brilliant paths will you pick?

[Scoffer]

3 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Say you want to get to Georgy and Olaf.  You've read the card (because you're a smart cookie) and noted that damaging them makes them push 4" towards you.  Yes!  You're going to get them out of this bubble.  Unfortunately your opponent, being a smart cookie, has a Banjonista and a Bayou Gremlin in front of them blocking pushes

Let's begin with reading the card properly. Georgy's push is "up to" and "ignoring models" which means you can't get him out of the bubble (if he doesn't want it) and also blocking way with models doesn't help. 

Go on, please.

[RisingPhoenix]

11 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Let's begin with reading the card properly. Georgy's push is "up to" and "ignoring models" which means you can't get him out of the bubble (if he doesn't want it) and also blocking way with models doesn't help. 

Go on, please.

Oh you did read the cards!  I'm so happy!  It's nice to see. 

What is your brilliant plan here, go on.  I'm waiting.  How do you start to pick apart this bubble without getting your forces shot to hell and back?  Because I assure you, it's surprisingly mobile, it can scheme outside the bubble with ease, and all these "counters" like shockwaves do so very, very little (except set off the machine gun that's 'the dream scenario')

Strategies like "my opponent doesn't have a 7 in their hand" and "my opponent flipped the black joker" are right out.

(There are some good ones.  Sword Trick So'mer to hell, cheat high enough it lands, and rip Lennie to bits with the Coryphee Duet by activating it three times in a row.  Say "screw defensive flips" and Sandeep bomb people for 5-7 damage that dodges flips and comes from dead models.   But these are from other crews that also need some time with our friend Mr. Errata)

[Scoffer]

2 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Oh you did read the cards!  I'm so happy!  It's nice to see. 

What is your brilliant plan here, go on.  I'm waiting.  How do you start to pick apart this bubble without getting your forces shot to hell and back?  Because I assure you, it's surprisingly mobile, it can scheme outside the bubble with ease, and all these "counters" like shockwaves do so very, very little.

Strategies like "my opponent doesn't have a 7 in their hand" and "my opponent flipped the black joker" are right out.

My plan is simple and has two parts:

1. Score points from strat and schemes.

2. Don't let enemy score points from strat and schemes.

Why do I want to kill Georgy? How many VP can I score or secure or descore by doing that? Isn't it better to lure him away? Or kill something else?

Models in the bubble can be shot from safe distance. Or from concealment. Or from cover (it's not the perfect way, but df7 saves from stat6 shots rather often). There are also models with stealth and models that ignore los - they can't be shot back. Models can be lured, pushed, placed out of the bubble. They can be obeyed to walk away. 

Big hats can score outside the bubble. But they lose a lot of strength as soon as they leave the bubble and can be killed before they score. That Skeeter+Crier combo is nice, but there is an enemy activation between them. 

[RisingPhoenix]

Okay, your plan is to score points.  Thank you, captain obvious.

See, this is what I mean when I say there's a difference between hitting "reply" and actually having something worth saying.  Yes, there's quite a few strats and schemes where killing your enemy's models is pretty useful.  We could start with Recover Evidence.

2 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Models in the bubble can be shot from safe distance. Or from concealment. Or from cover (it's not the perfect way, but df7 saves from stat6 shots rather often). There are also models with stealth and models that ignore los - they can't be shot back. Models can be lured, pushed, placed out of the bubble. They can be obeyed to walk away. 

Sure.  But this is one of the very few bubbles in the game which comes with its own built-in counter to all of those.  And that is any time you go into an opposed duel with a Big Hat minion in the bubble, you have a 2-in-3 chance of losing the duel.  This adds up really, really rapidly, especially when you're trying to lure a model outside the bubble.

So while many bubbles in this game, like Ulix, can get picked apart by lures, So'mer is surprisingly resilient to that, like he's resilient to everything.  Like you think Shockwaves hit Gremlins?  What if I told you that a 13 vs Df shockwave has less than 50% chance to affect a Bayou Gremlin? 

This crew also has lures and obeys, and they're very good at getting the models you just got out right back in.  Or sometimes displacing So'mer/Lenny so the bubble moves to where it needs to be. 

And the entire time, their actions succeed 2-in-3 times while yours fail 2-in-3 times.  And that puts substantial hand pressure on you, while Bayou is always going to have a horror show hand.  Like, it's not uncommon to lure something outside the bubble and discover they've done so much card cycling they have 3-4 severes. 

8 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Big hats can score outside the bubble. But they lose a lot of strength as soon as they leave the bubble and can be killed before they score. That Skeeter+Crier combo is nice, but there is an enemy activation between them. 

Wow!  That's great!  They have two skeeters.  Better hope you can kill both of the Sz 1 Df 6 flying models. 

This is one of the most frustrating things about Big Hat.  Everything you think is a counter... isn't.  They have two skeeters.  They can summon more!   They need cards?  They draw them every time you kill something (sometimes 2+ cards).  Did you lure their model?  They can lure them back.  Shockwaves?  Don't hit.  Or get your models shot. 

It's just so damn overloaded.  If you got rid of Bayou Two Card, made Pig-Eating Grin cancel Demise abilities, and nixed Smarter than I Look, it'd still be a good crew.  And that's terrifying. 

[GrumpyGrandpa]

I honestly don't think this branch of the thread is going anywhere good. This is now a personal crusade, and shouldn't be encouraged.

[RisingPhoenix]

Well that's one way to answer my question.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

Just now, RisingPhoenix said:

Well that's one way to answer my question.

You've gotten your answer several times. The fact that you chose to ignore it, and instead belittle people doesn't mean people aren't replying.

[RisingPhoenix]

4 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

You've gotten your answer several times. The fact that you chose to ignore it, and instead belittle people doesn't mean people aren't replying.

No, you dodged my question by saying "there's tons of answers" and listing a bunch of things that don't actually answer Big Hat, and then complaining that I'm making my point too well.

If you're going to dismiss everything pointing out the absurdity of a crew with random lists and "that involves perfect world scenarios" and not actually discuss what you'd really do on the table, don't get annoyed when people point out you're a cheerleader forum.  

The number one thing that needs Errata in Gremlins is Big Hat.  Period.  

[Scoffer]

10 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

It's just so damn overloaded.  If you got rid of Bayou Two Card, made Pig-Eating Grin cancel Demise abilities, and nixed Smarter than I Look, it'd still be a good crew.  And that's terrifying. 

But why doesn't it win anything? Where are all that tournaments won (or at least podiumed) by Somer soloers? I've heard about successful Mah players. I've had success with Zoraida, Ophelia and Zipp myself. Seems like we realy need some videos of broken Somer breaking things.

[Edek]

I will just throw in that the Big Hat auras are big enough so the crew can play reasonable spread out. Lenny's 8" aura is not ok, and Bayou Bash jest big enough that a 2" Shochwave shouldn't hit more than 2 models and Shockwaves are not an effective way to hit models, especially with Bayou Two Card.

[RisingPhoenix]

Just now, Scoffer said:

But why doesn't it win anything? Where are all that tournaments won (or at least podiumed) by Somer soloers? I've heard about successful Mah players. I've had success with Zoraida, Ophelia and Zipp myself. Seems like we realy need some videos of broken Somer breaking things.

So would something only be broken if it was capable of solo mastering everything?  Is it okay if So'mer wins, oh, only "all bubble crew strats" or something?

 

[Math Mathonwy]

Why the hostility @RisingPhoenix? We are all fans of a minis game here. We might have differing experiences and different opinions but if you're really trying to foster an honest discussion, I don't think that the attitude helps in any way.

But I think that your idea of taking them to a Vassal league and dominating is the best way to convince everyone that you are correct. Vassal games are also easy to record for Youtube so you can show how all those things listed as counters against Somer don't work.

IME Big Hat is amazing on paper but once there's terrain and Schemes and Strats and the opponent is smartly working against you it all tends to become a lot more difficult. Positioning is amazingly delicate with Big Hat and pretty easily disruptible due to the amount of Lynchpin models and their limited defenses against enemy repositioning tricks. And once a model is outside of the buff Auras they tend to become quite ineffective. Terrain can be a huge challenge for Big Hat.

[Kyle]

What started out as a constructive conversation about the balance in the Bayou turned ugly really quick, for little reason at all. 

We encourage discussion about what players feel are too good in the game. It's one of the many resources we have as designers to utilize when considering future errata. It also helps players think about certain crews in new ways that they might not have before. 

What isn't encouraged, though, is being uncivil with your peers. For those involved in the negativity and mud slinging: we suggest learning how to disagree with someone while still holding a civil conversation. Remember that there are people behind the monitors, and that they enjoy the game as much as you do. 

This thread is now locked. You are welcome to continue the conversation in a new thread as long as the rudeness is kept far, far away.