Which would be your top Bayou models that you'd address in an upcoming errata?

[Rosskov]

Improve 

Wizz bang generally (I feel they are not a competitive pick) 

Burt- I feel he is a stone too much. 

Gators-just need a little something 

Wrastlers- just need a little something 

Tweak 

Rami - id bump him up to 8 stones and give him two more wounds

Debuff

Kin- I think they are a little too strong. I think flinch should be once per activation. 

[Scoffer]

4 hours ago, Rosskov said:

Wizz bang generally (I feel they are not a competitive pick) 

Wizz-bang is the second best keyword in faction. All they need is a proper Master. 

4 hours ago, Rosskov said:

Gators-just need a little something 

I think Gators have everything a 5ss minion could dream of. If you are not satisfied, give your gator a sidearm gun for two extra stones )

4 hours ago, Rosskov said:

Rami - id bump him up to 8 stones and give him two more wounds

Two extra wounds for a sniper are not worth 2ss. Rami is good as a fragile guy in the backline. If the enemy is good enough to reach him - he deserves his death.

 

[ShinChan]

12 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Yeah I'm quoting myself.

That guy's wishlist:

Banjoistas- either gives them a built in Tome on Rebel Tell or drop them to 4ss and lose a Wound and point of DF. As is they don't have much use other than summoning for Condition Removal as they don't add anything that isn't done better by a slightly more expensive model or multiple cheap ones. Thier condition removal is nice, but it requires a precious summon and a Time in hand while being in an easy to remove model and being on a low stat making it hard to get off offensively. Giving them a built in suit would make them more consistent as condition removal. Alternatively making them cheaper would help them work as cheap tarpits and open up the option to summon two in a turn for Dueling Banjo bombs. 

 

Wrastlers- I'd like to see them have better crew synergy. Like something like Diving Charge to get though pianos. It My Time is Now for more survivability.  I personally would like them to get a bonus action like Mancha's old Off The Top Rope where they get move or charge bonuses for being in base to base with blocking terrain. Maybe something like: "Push this model it's Wk towards target blocking Terrain. Until end of turn it ignores terrain and other models when taking the Charge action"

Rebell Yell requiring a 3  is fine, I would usually prefer to bring real condition removal, like BBB. If I would change something from them would be giving them something to do with their actions or improve Pluck the Strings.

7 hours ago, Da Git said:

Wow! Someone thinks Youko is OP... or even good

She's by far the worst master and keyword in TT and one of the weaker ones in the game (imo)

I agree that she's quite bad and an improvement to Riddles in the Dark wouldn't even be enough to make her decent. Although her keyword is quite good, I don't know where does it come that is bad lol. Only Kabuki Warriors are lackluster IMHO.

For Bayou, as someone who plays Zipp (in Outcasts!) I would say Wrastlers, maybe an extra wound and a 1"ml

Agree, they don't feel worth it, but as we were discussing, seems to happen to a bunch of 5ss models. They definitely could use some small buff (diving charge or charging through pianos seems a really good idea) but the best thing it could happen to them and to all the other low cost minions that don't seem to find a place is a change in the Strat&Schemes to make more relevant to have a higher body count instead of elite models.

No idea what else... I'd be interested to see how Wong goes into Cadmus actually... Lots of low stats for his Shockwaves...

8-0, win for Cadmus. With WAL, they can spread the damage between them and just heal from the Emissary of Meredith, so almost pointless. Add that Shambling Nests can engage Wong turn 1 quite easily, forcing him to waste activations just to disengage, which means less shockwaves and the crew doesn't get the support they need to work in the following turns.

 

4 hours ago, Rosskov said:

Improve 

Wizz bang generally (I feel they are not a competitive pick) 

Burt- I feel he is a stone too much. 

Gators-just need a little something

They're fine, their main problem is that they don't fit much with Zoraida's playstyle and they don't bring anything that useful to other keywords.

Wrastlers- just need a little something 

Tweak 

Rami - id bump him up to 8 stones and give him two more wounds

+1 Cost and +1 Wd, just because he feels OP right now.

Debuff

Kin- I think they are a little too strong. I think flinch should be once per activation.

That's not a bad idea actually, but then, no other nerf to the keyword please.

I would prefer Sammy going to Mv 5 and put the Bokors in line.

 

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

Wizz-bang is the second best keyword in faction. All they need is a proper Master.

Just for the sake of asking, but which is the other keyword that is better? I strongly disagree with this statement, I can think of at least 3 keywords that are better hands down.

I think Gators have everything a 5ss minion could dream of. If you are not satisfied, give your gator a sidearm gun for two extra stones )

Two extra wounds for a sniper are not worth 2ss. Rami is good as a fragile guy in the backline. If the enemy is good enough to reach him - he deserves his death.

What he really needs is a nerf, and the best way to do it without breaking him is +1 cost +1Wd

 

[Rosskov]

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

 

Two extra wounds for a sniper are not worth 2ss. Rami is good as a fragile guy in the backline. If the enemy is good enough to reach him - he deserves his death.

 

I think Rami is too good for his cost, possibly even too good for 7 but I think if you just bump up his cost he will see a lot less play so there would need to be a degree of adjustment. That was my proposal. 

 

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

Wizz-bang is the second best keyword in faction. All they need is a proper Master. 

 

 

Do you find yourself using a lot of the models ook? 

I often drop sammy in my kin lists and use bokors now and again but I cant say I've really used the others much at all. 

[touchdown]

As a frequent opponent to Bayou, Gremlin General feels too strong. I think it should be limited to opposed duels, or just Df, Wp, and attacks. Maybe even both limitations.

Bayou Two card also feels very strong. I wouldn't mind that getting a once per activation limit.

[Thatguy]

3 minutes ago, touchdown said:

As a frequent opponent to Bayou, Gremlin General feels too strong. I think it should be limited to opposed duels, or just Df, Wp, and attacks. Maybe even both limitations.

Bayou Two card also feels very strong. I wouldn't mind that getting a once per activation limit.

Both mechanics are pretty strong. They're pretty core to the crew though so can be hard tune. 

I think changing Bayou Two Card to once an activation would be fine. It's rare to use it more then once per activation. 

Gremlin General could get shifted to just opposed duels. Changing it to just Attack and DF would be a really big nerf. The +1 to Attack really helps with Pig Eating grin and Obeys since most of the crew has bad stats when not benefiting from. Bayou Bash.

[Thatguy]

5 hours ago, Rosskov said:

Rami - id bump him up to 8 stones and give him two more wounds

I've seen people complain about Rami before but I don't think he's much better than the average sniper. 

Like he stacks up pretty close with the Freikrops Scout. Same gun, better triggers but way less mobile. Is argue stuff like Kantanka Snipers and Angel Eyes need a boost before Rami needs nerfing.

If a Kin needs nerfing I'd pick Sammy's 7ss, draw 3+ cards a turn. 

[Scoffer]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Just for the sake of asking, but which is the other keyword that is better? I strongly disagree with this statement, I can think of at least 3 keywords that are better hands down.

If we take a keyword without it's master and totems, the best one is Kin. The second is Wizz-bang. Big Hat, Sooey/Pig and Swampfiend are good, but they rely on their masters a lot.

46 minutes ago, Rosskov said:

Do you find yourself using a lot of the models ook? 

I often hire bokors and Alphonse into other crews. The Pigapult too, but it's versatile and doesn't count, I think.

[ShinChan]

3 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

If we take a keyword without it's master and totems, the best one is Kin. The second is Wizz-bang. Big Hat, Sooey/Pig and Swampfiend are good, but they rely on their masters a lot.

I often hire bokors and Alphonse into other crews. The Pigapult too, but it's versatile and doesn't count, I think.

Tricksy wins by far if we don't take into account masters and totems. BBB and Sparks are just great OOK picks and I've seen them in many lists. I've played Silurids and Spawn mother many times OOK (and I've seen the Spawn Mother a bunch of times in other player's lists) and The First Mate is probably the most picked OOK model across masters.

[touchdown]

45 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Both mechanics are pretty strong. They're pretty core to the crew though so can be hard tune. 

I think changing Bayou Two Card to once an activation would be fine. It's rare to use it more then once per activation. 

Gremlin General could get shifted to just opposed duels. Changing it to just Attack and DF would be a really big nerf. The +1 to Attack really helps with Pig Eating grin and Obeys since most of the crew has bad stats when not benefiting from. Bayou Bash.

I'm actually fine with it affecting attacks. It's the bonus to Mv and Sz duels that really annoy me. I keep looking at the Drachen Trooper and thinking it's for fighting bubble crews and then realizing I will have no stat advantage with an 8ss minion against Big Hat and getting salty.

[Jesy Blue]

23 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Tricksy wins by far if we don't take into account masters and totems. BBB and Sparks are just great OOK picks and I've seen them in many lists. I've played Silurids and Spawn mother many times OOK (and I've seen the Spawn Mother a bunch of times in other player's lists) and The First Mate is probably the most picked OOK model across masters.

The First Mate as a leader is F'N amazing! Picking from a mix of Bayou, Neverborn ... and technically Outcast.... models with both keywords is fascinating for list building.

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Wizz-bang is the second best keyword in faction. All they need is a proper Master. 

Defining what "best" means in this case is naturally difficult but Wizz-Bang has what, three excellent profiles, and then the rest are between really bad and kinda good? I dunno, I have to agree with @ShinChanthat Tricksy is massively better (as is Kin) and I'd rate Swampfiend at least on par and even Tri-Chi is kinda in the running there.

[Thatguy]

13 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Defining what "best" means in this case is naturally difficult but Wizz-Bang has what, three excellent profiles, and then the rest are between really bad and kinda good? I dunno, I have to agree with @ShinChanthat Tricksy is massively better (as is Kin) and I'd rate Swampfiend at least on par and even Tri-Chi is kinda in the running there.

What, no love for Big Hat, infamous and Ulix?

I guess it says something positive about internal balancing that most of the keywords stack up well against each other 

[Math Mathonwy]

Just now, Thatguy said:

What, no love for Big Hat, infamous and Ulix?

I guess it says something positive about internal balancing that most of the keywords stack up well against each other 

I think that Infamous is a bit lackluster (there's two really good profiles, a couple of fine ones and then quite a few really bad ones - I think it's probably the weakest keyword in Bayou though Zipp is great and offers you a playstyle that can be very powerful in certain scenarios) and Big Hat and Ulix are really good but really rely on their Masters to shine. But that's just my take on things.

[SEV]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

think that Infamous is a bit lackluster (there's two really good profiles, a couple of fine ones and then quite a few really bad ones

 The First Mate, Gracie, Mancha and Merris are from amazing to good. Iron mosquito are a little above than fine for a 7ss minion imo. 

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Big Hat and Ulix are really good but really rely on their Masters to shine.

That's true. They both really focus on their masters and henchmen as lynchpins/force multipliers for the crew.

Tri-Chi is much the same though. Brewmaster going down cuts down on a lot of utility in the crew.

 

29 minutes ago, SEV said:

The First Mate, Gracie, Mancha and Merris are from amazing to good. I

I can't really find a good use for the First Mate post nerf. He no longer hits hard, and 9ss is pretty expensive for a scheme runner.

[ShinChan]

24 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I can't really find a good use for the First Mate post nerf. He no longer hits hard, and 9ss is pretty expensive for a scheme runner.

He still smashes things without much trouble, just need a bigger resource investment. With 2 Gremlins in a Ghillie Suit he's probably the best (and one of the most expensive) scheme runner in the game.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, SEV said:

 The First Mate, Gracie, Mancha and Merris are from amazing to good. Iron mosquito are a little above than fine for a 7ss minion imo. 

I was thinking First Mate and Iron Skeeter. Merris is totally fine but I wouldn't call her amazing. And I dunno, maybe it's user error, but I haven't had much luck with Gracie. She is really hampered by her 50mm base and 0" Melee on our tables. She has been solid but not amazing. Better outside of keyword (as a Versatile), IMHO. Mancha can be very good in certain match-ups, I'll give you that!

[Thatguy]

8 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

just need a bigger resource investment

That's kinda my point. If you want him to function like the beater he was pre-nerf he's a 9 soulstone model chewing through 3+ soulstones a turn. With Gillie Suit he's 11 stones. Even if he's the best scheme runner in the game you can take like three mediocre scheme runners for the same price.

[ShinChan]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

That's kinda my point. If you want him to function like the beater he was pre-nerf he's a 9 soulstone model chewing through 3+ soulstones a turn. With Gillie Suit he's 11 stones. Even if he's the best scheme runner in the game you can take like three mediocre scheme runners for the same price.

And they maybe will or won't get the job done. You put those 11ss in Symbols pool with Spread them Out/Breakthrough/Sabotage and he'll give you 4 points without your opponent having much to say about it. I call that a great investment.

If the opponent tries do stop him, you should win just by the amount of resources that it will take from him to try to stop a model with:
Stealth, Disguised, BF, Mv6, SS user with a Leap and Pouncing Strike.

[Scoffer]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Defining what "best" means in this case is naturally difficult but Wizz-Bang has what, three excellent profiles, and then the rest are between really bad and kinda good? I dunno, I have to agree with @ShinChanthat Tricksy is massively better (as is Kin) and I'd rate Swampfiend at least on par and even Tri-Chi is kinda in the running there.

Wizz-bang has at least 4 excellent profiles: Alphonse, Bokor, Swine-Cursed and Sammy. And they are not just excellent by themselve - they generate a lot of synergy when working together.

Taxidermists are almost as good as Swine-Cursed, but I can't fit them in my lists most of time.

The only bad model is lightning bug, but it's as bad as most 5ss models in Bayou.

I rate Wizz-bang very high, because they have tools for any job in keyword, high offensive stats, easy access to fast and suits. I can play Wizz-bang all in keyword or with just one ook model.

 

[ShinChan]

59 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Wizz-bang has at least 4 excellent profiles: Alphonse, Bokor, Swine-Cursed and Sammy. And they are not just excellent by themselve - they generate a lot of synergy when working together.

Taxidermists are almost as good as Swine-Cursed, but I can't fit them in my lists most of time.

The only bad model is lightning bug, but it's as bad as most 5ss models in Bayou.

I rate Wizz-bang very high, because they have tools for any job in keyword, high offensive stats, easy access to fast and suits. I can play Wizz-bang all in keyword or with just one ook model.

 

Alphonse is great, Sammy and Bokors are a bit overtuned and need a nerf, specially the Bokors. Swine-Cursed are just okay. Taxidermist are mediocre. Lightning bugs are bad.

Sammy and Bokors are probably better in their other keywords that in Wizz-Bang, which leaves us Alphonse as a great model.

[SEV]

2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

That's kinda my point. If you want him to function like the beater he was pre-nerf he's a 9 soulstone model chewing through 3+ soulstones a turn. With Gillie Suit he's 11 stones. Even if he's the best scheme runner in the game you can take like three mediocre scheme runners for the same price.

At this price he's not just a scheme runner though, he's an awesome denial/surgical strike model.

What can I say, I'm in love with the guy... But after all, he's a silurid wearing a uniform and smoking a cigar, so he could be total thrash and I would field him anyway.

[Morgan Vening]

On 2/12/2021 at 6:48 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

I hate 0"Ml since it basically often gives the opponent an irresistable Slow Aura in a way which is crazy. But if anyone should have a 0" Ml in this game, I would argue that Wrastlers are kinda the perfect fit for it. So I would actually keep them at 0" but give them a boost to their mobility and survivability.

I dunno. While I don't have a problem with them ending up at 0", I dislike the maneuverability issues it causes, and the issue that you mention (re Slow).

I was an advocate for a minor change to Wrastlers during the playtest, because I love them so much, and they just never seemed to fit.

A couple suggestions, old and new.

1) Give Toss In The Mud the melee characteristic. Would allow them to charge and use it (making them mobile condition removalists), and also allow them to do the irresistable Slow aura, as a way of tying up the opponent. Yes, other models have the ability (Mancha, McTavish, Bad Juju, Bultingin), but none are already overpowered, most underpowered, and Bad Juju already has a 2" melee range, so it doesn't benefit him near as much.

2) Give them a front of card that allows them to reposition a little.
Luchadores: When this model declares a attack not generated by the Charge Action, it may place into base contact with any Enemy model within 2" before choosing a target.
This allows them to be the flipping little buggers we see on wrestling broadcasts, with them able to either get into or out of problematic spots before slipping on the choke hold, or landing the dropkick.

3) If 2 is a little complicated or problematic, give them Diving Charge, and have Luchadores instead read "When taking a Charge Action while engaged, this model must end in base contact with a model engaging it when the Charge was declared."

Heck, that Wrastlers don't have Stampede, is a crying shame. Name might not fit much, but the effect sure does. Or Beautiful Clothes (again, name not as appropriate as the effect), and a way to generate the Tome without it being automatic? Example, it can gain a Tome to it's melee attack, but if the duel fails, this model takes 1 damage. Or gains the Distracted? 

Plenty of ways that Wrastlers could be improved, without going nuts.

[Jesy Blue]

2" melee ranges do a lot for Tri-Chi controlling the table preventing interact actions. How about we simplify it even more.

Luchadores: This model may declare the Toss In The Mudd action instead of a Action during a charge.