Math Mathonwy Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 We all know the situation and it has affected our hobby quite a bit. Add to that the arrival of the Society which is currently being released and will shake up the metagame. So I could see the reasoning for there not being an errata or a new GG coming. OTOH there have been a couple of tournaments and Vassal is quite lively and there certainly are some models and Upgrades which could be looked into. So what do you think? Is errata needed? Is a new GG needed? Or should they skip this year? Or maybe postpone it until summer when things might (fingers crossed!) start to normalize? Any thoughts? (And naturally Wyrd can weigh in as well ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaclaws01 Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 I don't see a reason to not do an errata, even if a lot of people haven't been playing a good amount of people have been and there are definitely some things that need addressed in some form(Yan Lo, ninja samurai, fuhatsu, another) A new GG could go either way. I think the staleness of the pools for the people who have been getting games in could be alleviated by mixing up the gg1 and gg0 schemes and strategies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 I'd love to see GG2. At this point I've played more GG1 than GG0. That said, giving us a more structured way to mix and match GG1 and GG0 would be great substitute, so I like Santaclaws' solution. For example if it was available in the app, that'd be neat. Would be nice to have a 'wyrd-sanctioned' mish mash of GG1 and 0. In terms of data, I feel like the forums are as lively as ever, and a lot of games are happening on vassal and some in person, so I would hope there's a fair bit of data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinChan Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 If I were Wyrd, I would release a new Errata with the bare minimum changes possible (but some changes for sure) I would address all the FAQs so people like the TOs for the Vassal World Championship don't have to come up with a 10 pages document to address some rules questions... Some of them have been around almost 1 year (if not more). The GG question is tricky. I've played 111 games of GG1 so far, and honestly, I'm starting to be a bit tired of it. But as @santaclaws01 suggested, I think the best solution would be to mix the best of GG0 and GG1 to give some fresh air to the competitive and semi-competitive scene. For a in-depth errata I would wait until the dust from ES settles, for some basic reasons: Many of the models are not even for sale, so sell them with cards that are no longer valid is not the best idea. ES is starting to dominate the high positions in Vassal tournaments, but it could also be related to player skill. Nerfing too much some of the current keywords that are considered "overpowered" could result in ES dominating even more, with the game leaning to ES vs ES-counterpicks. I honestly hope that Wyrd takes its time to do things right this time and doesn't strike too hard with the nerf bat and instead starts fixing those models/keywords that really need them, but with proper fixes, since there are a bunch of keywords that came half-cooked from the M3E beta. I understand that, since there was a date established and little to nothing could have been done. Now, there is no hurry and M3E is great, so I hope things are managed the proper way this time 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muraki Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 I'd love to see erratas + a new GG as I've gotten way more games in with the pandemic than I was doing before (I mean, what else is there to do than play faux?). And some of the pools / crews selection options are starting to feel a bit static. I do feel for the more casual player as a new GG (when they never got to play too much of the old) and erratas may make them feel like the game is going off without them... but holding things up for them does a disservice to the active community getting games in online + talking about the game, so makes sense to keep soldering on. And lets be honest, if they popped in being like 'what happened' a few people would be more than happy to catch em up by sending them to batrep posts / tactics links for the new strats / etc. Only thing I do worry about is if an errata during this time would feel more more geared to a certain meta / playerbase or playstyle than some of the others as only certain metas have really embraced the vassal life (I know mine has gone silent as noone but me will jump on vassal and mess around). Same way I wonder if the 'hot / not' list right now feels more crowdsourced / competitive than before as there's less time for people to goof around with joke lists on a monday night at a gameshop to try new combos. But then I always wonder what the overlap between 'is too strong/weak' is with 'people say its too strong/weak'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whut Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 56 minutes ago, ShinChan said: Nerfing too much some of the current keywords that are considered "overpowered" could result in ES dominating even more, with the game leaning to ES vs ES-counterpicks. Yea, Wyrd should avoid nerfing. Instead using errata to buff the worst crews and models would be a good choice. This is especially true for Guild and Neverborn, I'm sure everyone is sick of the same 2 masters and at most 15 models being in every competitive crew. Maybe slight nerfs for the toppest of top tier (Riders, Coryphee, Silent Ones, Phiona, Dreamer/Stitched, etc) if other options are buffed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 For explorers society, I agree waiting and see how the faction shapes up (and its overall impact on the metas). Certainly nothing I've seen so far has me going "wow, I can't beat that." Every issue I've had so far is due to poor decisions or crew lists. That said, I think Ressers overall are pretty strong against them. Some modest buffs sound great, but would hate for the game to powercreep too much. FAQ sounds fantastic, though not too big. Would hate for rushed FAQs to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, Whut said: Yea, Wyrd should avoid nerfing. Instead using errata to buff the worst crews and models would be a good choice. This is especially true for Guild and Neverborn, I'm sure everyone is sick of the same 2 masters and at most 15 models being in every competitive crew. Maybe slight nerfs for the toppest of top tier (Riders, Coryphee, Silent Ones, Phiona, Dreamer/Stitched, etc) if other options are buffed Problem with this is some of that stuff is keeping the faction afloat (like how will Guild perform without Phiona, Rider, and LLC?) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whut Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 Just now, Maniacal_cackle said: Problem with this is some of that stuff is keeping the faction afloat (like how will Guild perform without Phiona, Rider, and LLC?) Right, it would require buffing the other options first 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPieChee Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 Sounds to me like what you want is several small erratas, a month apart, with time to tests the changes... Only doing one errata a year does have its issues. How much beta testing do Wyrd do of erratas? Perhaps they should consider releasing the errata but not updating the cards until they get some feedback. It's very common in games for developers to go too strong with buffs and nerfs (equally in computer and tabletop games in my experience). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 1 minute ago, MrPieChee said: Sounds to me like what you want is several small erratas, a month apart, with time to tests the changes... Only doing one errata a year does have its issues. How much beta testing do Wyrd do of erratas? Perhaps they should consider releasing the errata but not updating the cards until they get some feedback. It's very common in games for developers to go too strong with buffs and nerfs (equally in computer and tabletop games in my experience). Open beta could be a good format for that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74legion Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 I'm Waiting For A New "Survivor's Mistake". The term is quite appropriate. If the dreamer is in the top, it means that he is "too strong" - a mistake. This means that the rest of Neverborn is closer to a piece of shit. Conclusion: let's make it shit, too. I was waiting for Pandora's improvement, a neat weakening of the Dreamer. A received a huge weakening of all Through the upgrade (B_jump). I look forward to the changes with horror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 33 minutes ago, 74legion said: I'm Waiting For A New "Survivor's Mistake". The term is quite appropriate. If the dreamer is in the top, it means that he is "too strong" - a mistake. This means that the rest of Neverborn is closer to a piece of shit. Conclusion: let's make it shit, too. I was waiting for Pandora's improvement, a neat weakening of the Dreamer. A received a huge weakening of all Through the upgrade (B_jump). I look forward to the changes with horror. TBH it doesn't necessarily has to be survivor's mistake. It's entirely possible for the crew to be too strong while the other NVB to be too weak. But looking at Malifaux Vassal Series, NVB don't seem to be doing that bad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 I agree with @trikk - I think that if we wanted everything to be on level with Dreamer, we would need to buff like 80-90% of the keywords in the game which probably isn't a good idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Vening Posted February 11, 2021 Report Share Posted February 11, 2021 On 2/9/2021 at 7:54 PM, Maniacal_cackle said: Open beta could be a good format for that! Hard disagree there. While I appreciate the hard work beta testers do, if there's an open beta on errata, then for a lot of groups, the beta cards became the defacto cards for games, and that's just going to be confusing when it comes to official events, and having to remember that no, Mah Tucket can no longer pulse Focus three times on the first turn (to use a previous errata fix). I don't think the requirements for playtesting are particularly onerous. I'd sign up, but I just don't have the time to play enough that my input would matter. Also, there's a matter of skill level, and my lack thereof. So, people wanting to playtest can and should sign up. But going open beta is just going to muddle where things are, IMO. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 11, 2021 Report Share Posted February 11, 2021 True, it probably wouldn't work out due to logistics. I did quite like the M3E open beta (though was new so didn't contribute much). I'm in the same boat, haven't signed up to be a tester, but that is largely cuz I suck at paperwork xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74legion Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 If in my community 5 people play for the arcanists and 1 plays for the nonverbal, they will generally say that it is very difficult to play for the arcanists against the dreamer. And they will find a dozen shortcomings that prevent them from "winning in the 1st round 8-0". So I'm against an open test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74legion Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 On 2/9/2021 at 1:16 PM, trikk said: TBH it doesn't necessarily has to be survivor's mistake. It's entirely possible for the crew to be too strong while the other NVB to be too weak. But looking at Malifaux Vassal Series, NVB don't seem to be doing that bad A must play normally, and not be too strong or vice versa. Therefore, as mentioned above, on the table we see a pair of masters and a 1h set of models. This is an indicator. Vassal is not an indicator of the Coolness of NVB - it's just the level of the players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drool_bucket Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 No more open tests. The developers know which models stink in each faction. Make them better. Make a GG2 that makes minions great again. (Were they ever?) I’ll take another year of that. next year they can tackle ES. Let them sell some models first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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