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Who will be nerfed? Who needs some buffs??


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10 minutes ago, Vangerdahast said:

 

Colette also has coutnerplays: attacks that target WP (Colette needs a Soulstone for Fade Away, resource drain), attacks that target Mv, irreducible damage, Laugh Off..., attacks that prevent Triggers like Soulstone Miner, for example.

 

None of those stop Colette's who spend the game buried, but Laugh Off is a good point.

And Scion of the Void of course.

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I didn't really follow it that closely, but the last stats I saw was at the end of the group stages, so 3 games per player. Plaag won all his games but they weren't all 8-0. (In these 3 games Plaag wa

I'd watch out if all you really want a 'best / worst in faction' post as it'll become a lightning rod for 'no not really' / etc comments, which will prolly get it shut down / off topic before its usef

I’d be okay with reducing the range of presto chango. I caution any major changes. I remember when she got nerfed back at the tail end of m2e and basically made her irrelevant. Changes should be subtl

The only change I see reasonable to Colette is reducing the Presto-Chango to 6" instead of the current 8" or increase the TN by 1-2.

I 120% agree with @Vangerdahast here, the real problem when facing Arcanist is that Rider (specially with SS cache). Being able to reactivate a model in turn 2, 3, 4 and 5, while being in a corner of a map, without LoS or range is nuts. Even as a last activation can easily score 2 points from schemes pretty easy, dropping 4 scheme markers with 0 counterplay. It should require targeting/LoS or/and a model in range.

Duet is fine, after all it costs 12ss and can't have upgrades.

Colette has been doing pretty good in the Vassal tournaments, but not much better than others. She also has been played by really good players, which means she will do good. My main concern about her is how similar are all her list:

  • Colette
  • Rider (usually with ss cache)
  • 1-2 SS miners (1 with Magical training)
  • 2 Coryphee to become the Duet.
  • 1 beater/tech pick or Silent One to add some healing/creating pillars to annoy more the enemy with presto chango or protect symbols of authority / Leylines
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if stunned shutdown triggers before they activated, that would make pandora's crew very interesting for me.

It sounds to me like collette is just supported by strong models in faction. Duet+ rider is a insane amount of points though. I would think once they figure out how to make having more activations with cheap minions stronger, this type of crew will lose even more viability. if/when they choose to do that

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@ShinChan: Good idea about increasing the TN.

 

Concerning the similarity of lists. I personally don't play quite like this but tournaments seems to prove the predominance of this type of list. The problem seems similar to Seamus: a very good Master with an average/bad Keyword. Difficult to rebalance. If we want more in keyword Colette Crew, then Performers should be upped and probably Colette a bit nerfed to balance the up.

 

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1 minute ago, ShinChan said:

The only change I see reasonable to Colette is reducing the Presto-Chango to 6" instead of the current 8" or increase the TN by 1-2.

I 120% agree with @Vangerdahast here, the real problem when facing Arcanist is that Rider (specially with SS cache). Being able to reactivate a model in turn 2, 3, 4 and 5, while being in a corner of a map, without LoS or range is nuts. Even as a last activation can easily score 2 points from schemes pretty easy, dropping 4 scheme markers with 0 counterplay. It should require targeting/LoS or/and a model in range.

Yeah, a nerf to 6" would be huge. That reduces it from 16" to 12" (plus base size). That's about the scale of change I think would be appropriate.

I absolutely hate when they nerf a model to unplayable, and we have to remember she has an overall weak keyword as well.

As for Rider, how is it dropping 4 scheme markers? It can drop one itself, and if it reactivated a schemer that is at best two more? It can't ride with me and revel in the same activation, so it cant do two scheme markers per activation itself.

Plus all the Riders are strong schemers.

Personally I generally find the card draw trigger on its gun scarier to play against. Colette for example is weak in terms of card advantage, and the rider can just negate that.

That said, they could nerf Dead Rider and Mechanical Rider, and maybe Pale Rider, and I don't think that'd be unreasonable.

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5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, a nerf to 6" would be huge. That reduces it from 16" to 12" (plus base size). That's about the scale of change I think would be appropriate.

I absolutely hate when they nerf a model to unplayable, and we have to remember she has an overall weak keyword as well.

As for Rider, how is it dropping 4 scheme markers? It can drop one itself, and if it reactivated a schemer that is at best two more? It can't ride with me and revel in the same activation, so it cant do two scheme markers per activation itself.

Plus all the Riders are strong schemers.

Personally I generally find the card draw trigger on its gun scarier to play against. Colette for example is weak in terms of card advantage, and the rider can just negate that.

That said, they could nerf Dead Rider and Mechanical Rider, and maybe Pale Rider, and I don't think that'd be unreasonable.

Concerning the 4 Markers: Revel in Creation let you drop a scheme Maker as a bonus action.

Rider uses Revel in Creation that drops a Marker and uses Revelation Trigger.

Then Rider walks and Interacts for another Marker. End of its activation.

The Rider activates one more time, uses Revel in Creation to drop a third marker then Walks and Interacts for a 4th Marker.

 

Concerning the card draw on attack, I rarely ust it (I use Fate Tokens to reduce damage or for Revelation Trigger). Perhaps a matter of personal playstyle.

 

 

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On 2/1/2021 at 10:43 AM, Sanik said:

 

On the other hand... obviously Rasputina needs some love ( and everybody knows it) but I think Mei also needs some serious attention. Her mobility trick is nice, and she has decent dmg output... but I just can’t get away with this feeling that she is missing something...

 

what would she need to make her “top tier” master? 

Mei Feng's crew is lacking two things. Firstly, they don't have any Schemey models. They have Reckless which is great, but they dont have any efficiency with dropping or removing scheme markers (I was hoping that Ivan would come in and fill that role lol).

More importantly I think, is that the crew has quite a bit of Moderate target numbers and Discard effects, but absolutely ZERO card draw. In my experience, this makes the crew feel very swingy, some times you hit your target numbers, and sometimes Willie just fails his duels three times oh well. This can be problematic in a crew that is often played as an Alpha Striker, since if they miss their target numbers turn 1 or turn 2 it can be extremely detrimental. 

The prime example of this has got to be the Forgeling. Don't get me wrong, its a great model. But its also the model that kind of defines your Deployment. This is because the Forgeling has the potential to drop 2 Scrap Markers, but relies on a Trigger that's not built in. Since it requires 2 Scrap Markers to Ride the Rails, the difference between 1 Scrap and 2 is massive. If you've Deployed in such as way that you were counting on having a 4 Rams in your starting hand, but missed it, it can very seriously slow down the pace of your crew, which is kind of their major strength. 

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8 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Mei Feng's crew is lacking two things. Firstly, they don't have any Schemey models. They have Reckless which is great, but they dont have any efficiency with dropping or removing scheme markers (I was hoping that Ivan would come in and fill that role lol).

More importantly I think, is that the crew has quite a bit of Moderate target numbers and Discard effects, but absolutely ZERO card draw. In my experience, this makes the crew feel very swingy, some times you hit your target numbers, and sometimes Willie just fails his duels three times oh well. This can be problematic in a crew that is often played as an Alpha Striker, since if they miss their target numbers turn 1 or turn 2 it can be extremely detrimental. 

The prime example of this has got to be the Forgeling. Don't get me wrong, its a great model. But its also the model that kind of defines your Deployment. This is because the Forgeling has the potential to drop 2 Scrap Markers, but relies on a Trigger that's not built in. Since it requires 2 Scrap Markers to Ride the Rails, the difference between 1 Scrap and 2 is massive. If you've Deployed in such as way that you were counting on having a 4 Rams in your starting hand, but missed it, it can very seriously slow down the pace of your crew, which is kind of their major strength. 

I don't know about Mei Feng, but I really feel this with other crews.

The problem with using lots of TNs or especially suits to balance a crew with card draw is your plans become unreliable.

And given that the opponent is doing everything they can to mess up your plans, it stinks to stumble over your own models.

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15 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't know about Mei Feng, but I really feel this with other crews.

The problem with using lots of TNs to balance a crew with card draw is your plans become unreliable.

And given that the opponent is doing everything they can to mess up your plans, it stinks to stumble over your own models.

For me personally, I would give the Forgeling Press the Advantage as well, so it can get that Trigger Turn 1 very reliably, but for a higher resource cost. I also think I would change Mei Feng's Heated Claws trigger, since its pretty bad rn. She really struggles against anything with damage reduction, so I would change it to: "Immediately, if the target is a Construct, it gains Burning +2. When Resolving, if the Target has Burning +3 or greater, this Action receives a Positive to its damage flip."

This way its kind of a call back to her Superheated Trigger from 2E, as well as encourages the Burning sub-theme of the Keyword, while also strengthening the combo between Breath of Fire and Deadly Claws and giving you a reason to declare Blaze over Condensation, in specific scenarios. 

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12 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

 I also think I would change Mei Feng's Heated Claws trigger, since its pretty bad rn... call back to her Superheated Trigger from 2E, as well as encourages the Burning sub-theme of the Keyword

I am strongly in favour of encouraging Burning Mei.

Given the low Health pools and the fact that half the crew has sacrificed flesh in the building of the railroads, Price of Progress would be fine too. Particularly if everyone got more Burning triggers. But the usurper railway lady claimed that turf, and re-building the entire Foundry keyword now is ridiculous.

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I’d be okay with reducing the range of presto chango. I caution any major changes. I remember when she got nerfed back at the tail end of m2e and basically made her irrelevant. Changes should be subtle and then given time to see if its enough. If not then you take it a step further next time around.

 

Raspy gets my vote for one who needs a buff. Ontop of being below the power curve, she’s just not much fun to use due to her frustrating mechanics.

 

Showgirls I find pretty bad. They just get focused and obliterated in a single shot.

Mutations need adaptive evolution on the upgrades itself. This would open up his hiring options and again reduce frustration 

Cerberus could likely become an enforcer 

Ox mages just need to figure out what they want to be doing and get better at doing it

Please give poison gamin the beast keyword 😁

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this is topic only abt colette nerf?) i think that in erarta wyrd gonna nerf hard most of models that u dont like in colette crew, but just try to play her-u need always think abt position and her crew havent got a lot of dmg, so main tactic-try to score more than opp, but resourses are limited; i need to mention that coryphee cost 12!, carl and have 0 triggers to repeat actions or doing some additional actions, so double activation seems not unbalanced in that case, just give opp pass token; we can look at models like hinamatsu, fuhatsu, valedictorian-they can hit u si hard and have flurry, some aditional actions with triggers and cost 9-10; abt rider-reactivation without los anywhere on the map is not good, but just look at other triggers-they are useless-shuffle cards u need when u have good cards in discard, add suit is not good at all-just rework all trigger; if we are talking abt broken triggers-lets take a look at dead rider melee atack-this is better than colette presto chango-u just need token, i think that we need limitation on this trigger; abt colette herself-she need to be nerfed, but not hard-it is not so easy to play her

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Why should a Cerberus become an enforcer? That's quite a big nerf. Also, Wyrd has made two models, so it almost certainly won't happen. Removal of the onslaught trigger has been suggested, so you have to get it from the horns mutations. Other suggestions have been to play with leap, but that feels like a bad idea to me.

Adaptive evolution moving to the upgrades is a very popular suggestion. It would be great if it got an extra sentence to say it can't be removed with an obey.

Would also be great if the chimera models that loose adaptive evolution, gain "shed skin" which allows them to discard a mutation to remove any/all conditions.

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abt nerfes:

dreamer and his keyword

shen(tokens and irresistable condition removal)

ophelia and kin

somer and crier, spit hog

hamelin(blight tokens need to be redused after bleeding desease and give cap for dmg on this action)

leveticus(dmg without resist from entrophy and irreducible dmg)

gataraux bokors

black blood shamans

hinamatsu

midnight stalker

serena bowman

dashel(mostly his totem with so many resourses)

yan lo(make hazardous as action) double summon from toshiro

shchtook

dead rider reap

asami fliker tokens

minako with katashiro summon

fuhatsu with steals

also some actions/abilities-laugh off, planted roots, scatter-they kill intaraction between opponents

and explorers) emissary, finigan, archivist, nexus keyword and we are legion ability

i dont play sandeep, but maybe kandara-make her look at top card and choose to discard it

 

 

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19 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

 

Why should a Cerberus become an enforcer? That's quite a big nerf. Also, Wyrd has made two models, so it almost certainly won't happen.

 

+1 ... and he would still be staple

19 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

Adaptive evolution moving to the upgrades is a very popular suggestion. It would be great if it got an extra sentence to say it can't be removed with an obey.

Would also be great if the chimera models that loose adaptive evolution, gain "shed skin" which allows them to discard a mutation to remove any/all conditions.

That feels like a pretty big change to me regarding the amount of cards that need to be changed. Even though I would like your suggestion I find it rather unlikely to happen. 

I still think there are likely possibilities:

1. Marcus himself gets a buff like:

-Primal domain range 10“/12“

2. one or two other tweaks that buff the unspectacular models (SRM, Mole, Hound, Rattler...???)

3. reworking the mutation upgrades 

- maybe more new upgrades

- change plentiful (2)

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1 hour ago, extremor said:

+1 ... and he would still be staple

That feels like a pretty big change to me regarding the amount of cards that need to be changed. Even though I would like your suggestion I find it rather unlikely to happen. 

I still think there are likely possibilities:

1. Marcus himself gets a buff like:

-Primal domain range 10“/12“

2. one or two other tweaks that buff the unspectacular models (SRM, Mole, Hound, Rattler...???)

3. reworking the mutation upgrades 

- maybe more new upgrades

- change plentiful (2)

marcus is a pretty good master, he dont need to be buffed

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52 minutes ago, Plaag said:

marcus is a pretty good master, he dont need to be buffed

Depends... if I get your post right and you want to nerf tier 1 crews really hard then I agree. Marcus doesn’t need a buff. But atm he isn’t designed well. I wish for a rework. Some of his models are strong. Others are lame. That’s boring and bad design. 

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1 hour ago, extremor said:

Depends... if I get your post right and you want to nerf tier 1 crews really hard then I agree. Marcus doesn’t need a buff. But atm he isn’t designed well. I wish for a rework. Some of his models are strong. Others are lame. That’s boring and bad design. 

almost all keywords have few good models and other are bad, its not only marcus

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5 hours ago, Plaag said:

abt nerfes:

dreamer and his keyword

shen(tokens and irresistable condition removal)

ophelia and kin

somer and crier, spit hog

hamelin(blight tokens need to be redused after bleeding desease and give cap for dmg on this action)

leveticus(dmg without resist from entrophy and irreducible dmg)

gataraux bokors

black blood shamans

hinamatsu

midnight stalker

serena bowman

dashel(mostly his totem with so many resourses)

yan lo(make hazardous as action) double summon from toshiro

shchtook

dead rider reap

asami fliker tokens

minako with katashiro summon

fuhatsu with steals

also some actions/abilities-laugh off, planted roots, scatter-they kill intaraction between opponents

and explorers) emissary, finigan, archivist, nexus keyword and we are legion ability

i dont play sandeep, but maybe kandara-make her look at top card and choose to discard it

 

 

I dont disagree, but this thread was about ARCANIST changes lol. I think it's funny that you think absolutely nothing should be changed in Arcanists!

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4 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I dont disagree, but this thread was about ARCANIST changes lol. I think it's funny that you think absolutely nothing should be changed in Arcanists!

You might have to look about a little, but it wasn't too long ago he posted this (and his list above does contain at least 1 arcanist model)

On 1/29/2021 at 3:43 PM, Plaag said:

maybe she is already in?)))

yes, colette need to be nerfed, but not very hard-because its not an easy way to play her-u need always think abt position and order of activations

 

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On 2/5/2021 at 12:23 AM, Jordon said:

I’d be okay with reducing the range of presto chango. I caution any major changes. I remember when she got nerfed back at the tail end of m2e and basically made her irrelevant. Changes should be subtle and then given time to see if its enough. If not then you take it a step further next time around.

 

Raspy gets my vote for one who needs a buff. Ontop of being below the power curve, she’s just not much fun to use due to her frustrating mechanics.

 

Showgirls I find pretty bad. They just get focused and obliterated in a single shot.

Mutations need adaptive evolution on the upgrades itself. This would open up his hiring options and again reduce frustration 

Cerberus could likely become an enforcer 

Ox mages just need to figure out what they want to be doing and get better at doing it

Please give poison gamin the beast keyword 😁

 

But that's what Wyrd did in the 2ed....They nerf all "tier-1 masters" so hard to the ground.....Remember Nicodem? When Asura Rotten first came out, NIcodem became God...then like 3 months later, nerfed to the ground and never came back...(literally too XD). And Colette got hit with the nerf-bat like 3 times during the 2ed.....

 

 

9 hours ago, Plaag said:

this is topic only abt colette nerf?) i think that in erarta wyrd gonna nerf hard most of models that u dont like in colette crew, but just try to play her-u need always think abt position and her crew havent got a lot of dmg, so main tactic-try to score more than opp, but resourses are limited; i need to mention that coryphee cost 12!, carl and have 0 triggers to repeat actions or doing some additional actions, so double activation seems not unbalanced in that case, just give opp pass token; we can look at models like hinamatsu, fuhatsu, valedictorian-they can hit u si hard and have flurry, some aditional actions with triggers and cost 9-10; abt rider-reactivation without los anywhere on the map is not good, but just look at other triggers-they are useless-shuffle cards u need when u have good cards in discard, add suit is not good at all-just rework all trigger; if we are talking abt broken triggers-lets take a look at dead rider melee atack-this is better than colette presto chango-u just need token, i think that we need limitation on this trigger; abt colette herself-she need to be nerfed, but not hard-it is not so easy to play her

 

I think the issue with Mech rider is that she single-handily wins VP too easily. I mean dead rider is a powerful model, but his power doesn't necessary wins vps on the spot. Mech rider does. Against me last week, she alone score 3 vps all by herself. Dead rider's "i'm gonna murder you all" tirgger looks cool, seems powerful, might have your oppornent felt overwhelmed....but at the end of the day, a guild player has to play extra-hard to utilize the hole dead rider created, and maybe squeeze one or two vps out of the opportuniy. Mech rider just goes in and gets vps with ease.

 

and this game is about scoring vp, not killing....

 

but now I start to think that Wyrd gonna nerf Mech rider, corphee, and maybe soul stone caches, but not Colette herself. 

 

 

I am curious tho....Does Wyrd take tournament results into consideration to decide what to nerf/buff like mtg? I am not exactly a competitive player so not sure how often Colette actually wins at big tournaments and how likely Wyrd would take those into consideration?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Sanik said:

I am curious tho....Does Wyrd take tournament results into consideration to decide what to nerf/buff like mtg? I am not exactly a competitive player so not sure how often Colette actually wins at big tournaments and how likely Wyrd would take those into consideration?

I've been wondering the same thing myself. As far as I can tell, there is not a consistent balance philosophy/goal for crews. I think feedback (and especially battle reports) have played a large role, though.

One issue is that tournament results aren't always reported, and they're typically very small samples. There's also the question whether you balance for tournaments (which I imagine over 90% of games are not tournament games). Personally I think it is the best way to balance.

EDIT: I did ask the app developer if they tried to distinguish between tournament games in the app data, and the response was they weren't  sure if there is any reason to differentiate between the two. So they might not consider tournament games to be different from casual games from a balance perspective.

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5 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I dont disagree, but this thread was about ARCANIST changes lol. I think it's funny that you think absolutely nothing should be changed in Arcanists!

i told in previous post abt duet, rider, colette-models that appear in nerf topics mostly; can u advice other models in arcanist for being nerfed?

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56 minutes ago, Sanik said:

 

But that's what Wyrd did in the 2ed....They nerf all "tier-1 masters" so hard to the ground.....Remember Nicodem? When Asura Rotten first came out, NIcodem became God...then like 3 months later, nerfed to the ground and never came back...(literally too XD). And Colette got hit with the nerf-bat like 3 times during the 2ed.....

My memory may be off, but I only remember 1 nerf to colette, when they changed practise production to only be able to target each model once per activation.  A performer upgrade got changed as well, but that often showed up in crews without Colette but I think she suffered most from GG changes. 

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Nerfs;

Put a range (of almost any kind, but I'd say like 6") on the Mech Rider's reactivate so that it has to be in a targetable position in order to be effective.

Take Arcane Reservoir off of Magical Training.

Buffs;

Give Raspy card-draw in keyword so she doesn't have to tech in Kandara. Maybe on the Acolytes? And give the keyword some diversity of free actions instead of giving everyone the same barely useful one.

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