Who will be nerfed? Who needs some buffs??

[Sanik]

I am not too familiar with errata schedules,  it since the last errata was last year’s March, so I am assuming that we will get a new errata soon in... maybe next month? with COVID-19, which kinda prohibited the actual games going, I am not sure if there’s enough data to make changes, but we had vassal leagues and Russian tournament(?) so we might have just enough...

 

So the most obvious elephant in the room is Colette - she is so hard to take down, but one of the most mobile master in the game. Her crew can score pretty much any schemes easily.... 

from what I gathered, she was the only master who didn’t “lose” any match in fauxember.

Shouldn’t she get nerfed? Realistically, will she?  If so what would you do? 
 

 

On the other hand... obviously Rasputina needs some love ( and everybody knows it) but I think Mei also needs some serious attention. Her mobility trick is nice, and she has decent dmg output... but I just can’t get away with this feeling that she is missing something...

 

what would she need to make her “top tier” master? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

For Colette, there's two issues that stand out:

• Her presto chango range is insane (16" swap, not counting bases?) Nerf the range.
• Stun should work to counter her trigger (after all, stun is meant to be the counter to strong triggers).

So maybe reduce the range of presto chango by a few inches (even at 4 it'd be a strong ability, but I'm not sure it should go that far), and change fadeaway to 'reduce damage by 2, bury unless stunned.'

Those two tweaks would go a long way I reckon.

I don't really know what I'm talking about, though.

[muraki]

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So maybe reduce the range of presto chango by a few inches (even at 4 it'd be a strong ability, but I'm not sure it should go that far), and change fadeaway to 'reduce damage by 2, bury unless stunned.'

Is this needed tho?  As fade away is a defense trigger, if she had stunned she couldn't declare triggers anyway, right?  Or am I reading things totally wrong?

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, muraki said:

Is this needed tho?  As fade away is a defense trigger, if she had stunned she couldn't declare triggers anyway, right?  Or am I reading things totally wrong?

The problem is you declare triggers before the effect is applied.

Thus, the order is:

• You attack with the stun attack.
• You both declare triggers
• The effects of the action are applied (possibly giving stunned, or you stun during trigger)
• Colette's trigger resolves.

Since stunned prevents DECLARING (and not resolving) a trigger, she still gets the bury.

Could also errata it so that stunned prevents triggers from being declared or resolved, which may be a wiser fix.

[muraki]

Ah I thought you were talking bout her already having stunned and then burying.  If we're talking about the stunned hit itself I doubt there's much to be done about it without making a clunky fix ( tho an errata to stunned would do it)

I am a little leery of errataing a condition just to stop a single op model.  Specially as the current stunned already rocks some models worlds (toni looking at you).  Like if fade is so bad, maybe she doesn't need it / gets a diff df trigger that leaves her still nearby (like a distraction explosion or a close range place), or a diff bury that was after succeeding not after resolving.

[ooshawn]

i'm not a big advocate for anything to be nerfed that isn't outright making ruining the game personally. I haven't really seen anything that's just completely out of line as of yet. I'm open to ideas though.  I feel like collette has always been known for being ultra hard to put down, so it makes sense to me that she has a strong teleport like that. I hear from a lot of people that she is very strong. It's tough to tease out the reason why. When I see stuff that says, nerf her teleport, it says to me, this is out of line and the reason she is unbalanced. The way I look at the nerfing process is, Is her teleport is what is making her win games? I personally suspect the issue to be more that she is versatile and people are probably trying to kill a master than maybe/maybe not should be outright ignored, which is a very tough thing for a lot of people to get past.

I think you have to establish with nerfs, is there more than anecdotal evidence that something is performing above and beyond what's needed and crowding out other options, or throwing off balance.  I'm not saying that isn't the case, just that I don't have it in front of me. Now is it possible that collette isn't out of balance and maybe she got blessed by the design gods and is just good at a lot of schemes/strats, that's possible as well. And I also don't see that as being a problem in any way , shape , or form.  Typically when people balance, they tend to look at the wow factor of any given thing, and then only naturally do they say, " well , that's it, there's your issue right there, is that crazy shit".  I think you have to dive deeper and determine, what is actually happening that's giving someone wins when perhaps it should not succeed in that scenario. And that can be a very tough thing to do, for anybody. 

That's part of the reason why nerfs are so bad, is they are so damn tough to get right.

[ooshawn]

I think it'd be easier to narrow down what should be nerfed about something , if we have very clear guidance from wyrd , in what cases they want something to be strong, and what cases, if any , they want something to fail. things can be good at multiple things , yet still be balanced (imo)

[Maniacal_cackle]

To clarify, Colette can teleport OTHER models 16 inches with presto chango. You have to spend the entire game working around having your models kidnapped and killed. She is a very kill-y crew for that reason. I think it is a bit over the top (16 inches is almost deployment to deployment on standard).

Leave her defenses intact, that's fine (except stunned on her defensive trigger IMO).

But that's a broader issue with defensive issues now that I think about it, since all the triggers get one free 'ignore stunned.'

It is just most obvious with Colette, since she will always bury on the first stun and you never get to hit her again.

[ooshawn]

Okay that explains things a little more clearly. That's the major complaint I've heard about her. An alternative way to nerf that , but still keep the wow factor maybe touch upon the severe damage of the models doing the killing and look into the stunned thing. Although that might neuter her defenses too much?(idk) But If the game doesn't have any schemes/strats where that teleporting someone into your team tactic is game winning, does her strengths fall off considerably? I admit this isn't a problem I remotely have wrapped my head around and understand, so I don't have the answers. You would have to find someone whose put in 20-50 games of collette recently and ask them where they succeed and where they fall and then confirm with wyrd if that's acceptable

[Adran]

27 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

I think it'd be easier to narrow down what should be nerfed about something , if we have very clear guidance from wyrd , in what cases they want something to be strong, and what cases, if any , they want something to fail. things can be good at multiple things , yet still be balanced (imo)

That's a bit of a backward way of looking at it. Wyrd make the choices, and this sort of thread may be read and considered but is not automatically going to result in Colette cuddled. 

 It's more a case that you can try and look at what does and doesn't get errata and work out what Wyrd consider acceptable power. 

In general even in the play testing they try and not tell you want a model should do, because that's not how it will work once it's in the wild. ( they still haven't worked out how to package a mini designer in each box to tell us that a certain model is intended to be a scheme runner, or a tar pit, or even a way to facilitate a different model, so if people don't use a model as they hoped they just try and change it if they really want it used a set way. )

[ooshawn]

Well it's obviously not really meant for wyrd, more as discussion for us in that regard. So that's something I may have phrased awkwardly or something you may have inserted into it.  If I had to phrase it better now, I would say," if you and I have clear direction from wyrd, we could then look at any given model and determine for ourselves and debate over how we think something should be properly balanced. " The key idea being that without direction from wyrd, your just shooting into the dark on what you think is a good idea. As in for all we know, nathan or whoever wants her to a 30 inch teleport and be able to insta kill models, and blah blah blah. It's great to have independant ideas that are in their own way, very valid. Which his definitely were. I'm just saying without Official direction, it's kind of meaningless to even brainstorm. 

[ooshawn]

Whereas a lot of gaming companies have blogs, and actually lay out (league of legends), we want this character to be strong in these ways, this character should fail here and here. It's a complex/simple kit, yadda yadda

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

Whereas a lot of gaming companies have blogs, and actually lay out (league of legends), we want this character to be strong in these ways, this character should fail here and here. It's a complex/simple kit, yadda yadda

Wasn't Riot the biggest video game company in the world for a period? They're insanely successful, they have plenty of money to throw around at things like that xD

I personally quite like these threads. They're fun brainstorms, and they sometimes uncover ways to beat powerful models, and Wyrd apparently does pay some attention to the forums.

[ooshawn]

Yeah, that's the reason I was contributing as well, it's a nice way to brainstorm. Although it doesn't take much effort to spend over the course of a weekend to lay out some guidelines in a PDF or something that might give some players some good things to brainstorm about.  Like I said, independant brainstorming is fantastic, it's just not really optimal without knowing what you actually need to be aiming for . For instance I think your ideas are super interesting, I can't say that makes them good/bad ideas though. I'm completely unqualifed in this scenario to make that judgement call. However, even that being said it'd be much easier to evaluate if that were the case if I knew what the actual designers wishes were. 

[Adran]

It probably was just a phrasing thing, it just looked a little entitled. 

I could probably guess a fairly accurate brief as what they want Colette to do in game. It's possible for a model to meet its brief to easily and be too strong, or require to much effort for the outcome and need a boost. So even with an idea of what they want from a model it's similar guess to decide if its too good or not.

I think I heard stories that at one point in the first edition design they had 3 masters that were literally impossible to kill. They toned it down and they were killable but it was very hard.

Personally I am happy to work out how I want to use a model rather than be told. Part of my fun is working out what I can get models to do. 

[ooshawn]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

It probably was just a phrasing thing, it just looked a little entitled. 

I could probably guess a fairly accurate brief as what they want Colette to do in game. It's possible for a model to meet its brief to easily and be too strong, or require to much effort for the outcome and need a boost. So even with an idea of what they want from a model it's similar guess to decide if its too good or not.

I think I heard stories that at one point in the first edition design they had 3 masters that were literally impossible to kill. They toned it down and they were killable but it was very hard.

Personally I am happy to work out how I want to use a model rather than be told. Part of my fun is working out what I can get models to do. 

I wouldn't say entitled per say, I just ackowledge strongly that the game doesn't "belong" to me or any of us really. It's what the designers say in every capacity.

Yes in first edition there were several masters that were impossible to kill, that is accurate.

As far as working out yourself, that's something we all do when we make and comment on these balance posts.  LIke I said though, no matter what we think our decisions even if they are more "correct" from our own point of view don't mean much. It might be the case that they are wanting to ramp up power levels this year or they have some releases that are going to render Collette the weakest master in the game, and needs to be toned up. It really is impossible to know what's the best way to handle anything as we don't have the same omniscience that the people who work at Wyrd do. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

On the flip side, things I imagine could see buffs:

• Kaeris' crew (ideally without buffing Sandeep)
• Rasputina's crew or Raspy herself (without buffing Sandeep)
• Colette's crew (as long as Colette herself was scaled down)
  • EDIT: Colette's crew just got a new model added to it, so I guess it is too soon for changes to the crew.

I think those keywords in particular are considered weak? It is tricky, of course, as Sandeep is considered quite strong and so there's a tension with accidentally bluffing him. Buffing fire golem enough to make it consistently playable with Kaeris could mean it is wayyy overpowered as a summon. In general, things get overpowered faster as summons than hires.

[ooshawn]

Perhaps we could have a google doc of the worst models in the game and the reasons why we thought they were, with our signatures next to them

[ooshawn]

and the best models. for posterity.  give players easy access to a organized opinion on certain models if they want any advice and nobody is around

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think metas and people's opinions evolve too fast to keep a document like that updated.

[ooshawn]

maybe like a faction specific google doc, with tips and tricks and what models to take for which schemes/strategies for each keyword. Models to avoid (need buffs) and what models that are amazing. I'm gonna start one for neverborn I think. especially Since I don't think there are any up to date strategy websites any more

[Da Git]

They all need nerfing

Filthy Arcanists🤮

Hmmm... maybe I should cut down on the TFW... Pretty sure there's some conditioning going on...

[Maniacal_cackle]

16 minutes ago, Da Git said:

They all need nerfing

Filthy Arcanists🤮

Hmmm... maybe I should cut down on the TFW... Pretty sure there's some conditioning going on...

Haha, I almost suggested nerfing soulstone cache as it does feel a bit strong, but the overall consequences for the faction would be pretty big.

Overall, I've not seen anything that convinces me Arcanists are completely over the top or anything (and if anything, in the NZ meta I struggle with TT way more).

EDIT: And as far as I know under the official rules (multi-master), Arcanists don't even have the strongest double master combos?

[Sanik]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To clarify, Colette can teleport OTHER models 16 inches with presto chango. You have to spend the entire game working around having your models kidnapped and killed. She is a very kill-y crew for that reason. I think it is a bit over the top (16 inches is almost deployment to deployment on standard).

Leave her defenses intact, that's fine (except stunned on her defensive trigger IMO).

But that's a broader issue with defensive issues now that I think about it, since all the triggers get one free 'ignore stunned.'

It is just most obvious with Colette, since she will always bury on the first stun and you never get to hit her again.

Back in the 2ed, Lilith had the exact same attack (well she still does, just got locked up XD), Tangle Shadow, but it was even longer (12 inches range). It was her bread-and butter attack, which made Lilith infamous for "kill-box".and it was worse because it was longer AND they got Nekima. Lilith was regarded as one of the stronger master, but she was nowhere near "degenerate" as other masters.

 

What makes Colette worse is her defense techs. As you said, you get maybe 1 shot at the first turn, and you are chsaing butterfly for the rest of the game, and her trigger is baked-in. At least make her spend soul stone or a card to make it happen, or changed to after damaing not resolving, so that your miss wouldnt count...?

 

 

I am curious tho, know Wyrd, how likely she will get nerfed? What are the likelihood of she getting nerfed?

 

 

[Adran]

1 hour ago, ooshawn said:

maybe like a faction specific google doc, with tips and tricks and what models to take for which schemes/strategies for each keyword. Models to avoid (need buffs) and what models that are amazing. I'm gonna start one for neverborn I think. especially Since I don't think there are any up to date strategy websites any more

If you write those documents then I would have thought these forums would have been a good place to put them.