Which Outcast models do you think needs some fix the most?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Does Aionus need a buff? When facing Tara, he is still number one on my kill list because he is so devastating to play against if you don't answer him.

[Zebo]

43 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Does Aionus need a buff? When facing Tara, he is still number one on my kill list because he is so devastating to play against if you don't answer him.

I think just turning back one of the nerfs he got last time would be ok, either quit the TN or return the in-built .

Personally, I would reduce the TN to 10 and would increase the Stat to 6 (with no in-built suits), so it would be easier to affect enemy models and it only would be needed a 4 to affect friendly models. 

 

Tough, as previously stated, I really haven't tested him properly. I'm speaking from the experiences I've been reading in this forum. 

 

Really, the changes I would like to see on Obliteration crew is new Summonable models, since right now they have the shortest and most boring list (smaller cheaper model and bigger a-bit-better-at-everything model). 

[RisingPhoenix]

11 hours ago, Zebo said:

Agree with Lazarus needing rework, disagree with the suggestion. Not because it wouldn't make him better, but because his gun is a Gatling grenade launcher. That fix isn't gonna happen. 

As previously said, changing his Grit for Rapid Fire is the way. 

 

Aionus may need help, but those changes would make both him and the whole crew way too powerful. Think that Beyond Time is on every non-Talos Obliteration model. And forcing enemies to pass activations at no cost is just crazy xD. 

Cannot give good advice about him though, not played enough to see a good fix.

Buffering would only happen if they tried to activate a fast model.  You could change it so that it can only apply if the opponent has other non-Fast models, and make it so they have to activate Fast models last.  Right now, it simply doesn't do anything, like a bunch of the tech on his card.  These fixes are to simply make the tech on the front of the card do the damn job it pretends to.

Right now he's a squishy support piece with the offensive and defensive capabilities of about a weak 8 stone model.  His support stuff has to be damn good, and it's not.  He's a 10 soulstone tax on the crew that doesn't even do his job anymore.   Seriously, stat 6 2/3/4 and 2 actions?  That's not what a 10 stones of offense gets you.

The fixes I suggested would not particularly overpower him.  Frankly, all the ways Beyond Time fails to work feel like giant oversights - the ability doesn't do half of what it should.

 

Lazarus' problems simply are never going to be solved as long as he brings something the crew has in abundance.  And I'm tired of having to bring Mad Dog Brackett in a Friekorps crew to get a decent "Pull!" target.  It's unthematic and stupid and he's miles better than Lazarus. 

 

Bandidos are literal crap models that exist to have Parker obey them to drop scheme markers.  They vanish when you look at them crosseyed.  For five stones, that's unacceptable, but as I said it's an M3E problem.

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

And I'm tired of having to bring Mad Dog Brackett in a Friekorps crew to get a decent "Pull!" target.

Freikrops has lots of decent "Pull!" Targets. Mad Dog passes decent and moves into stellar.

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Bandidos are literal crap models

Bandidos are mobile 5ss models with the ability to store AP and a situational obey. What more do you want out of them? Bulletproof might be thematic, but I don't see them really needing anything else. They already have a squeal equivalent for defense tech.

[RisingPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

Freikrops has lots of decent "Pull!" Targets. Mad Dog passes decent and moves into stellar.

Bandidos are mobile 5ss models with the ability to store AP and a situational obey. What more do you want out of them? Bulletproof might be thematic, but I don't see them really needing anything else. They already have a squeal equivalent for defense tech.

Okay, lets just say that it's weird to have a situation where one of the master's strongest abilities works best with OOK models. 

As for Bandidos, I'd love for them to do half of what a 10 SS model does.  You know, so that if I bring 2 Bandidos I feel like I have the equivalent of Mad Dog Brackett.  So if I compare them to Mad Dog, then Mad dog is a 6/6 10 wounds, HTK, and Bandidos are 5/5, 10 wounds, no other defensive tech.  And Mad Dog does 2/3 shots at a 6 for 3/4/5 with either blasts or armor piercing, while they do 4/5 shots at a 5 for 2/3/4.  Also at half wounds Mad Dog gets Grit, while at half wounds the Bandidos lose half their attacks. 

So they're basically worse in every way unless you're trying to straight gunline with no cheating.  In actual play scenarios, Mad Dog will do more damage and take more punishment.  Oh, and they lose you activation control. 

As I said, this is a general problem with M3E, that they don't really seem to have designed cognizant of the fact that 2x4=8 and 2x5=10.

[Zebo]

2 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Bandidos are 5/5, 10 wounds, no other defensive tech.

You forgot Quick Getaway, which allows them to run out of LoS/range/engagement.

 

4 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

they do 4/5 shots at a 5 for 2/3/4

Its 4/6 shots, wich means from 8 up to 12 min damage with 4" Larger range versus from 6 up to 9 min damage with 4" Shorter range. 

 

6 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

at half wounds the Bandidos lose half their attacks. 

It depends on how the wounds are distributed, of course. 

 

Not saying that Bandidos are good or bad, but they're quite well liked as far as I know. 

[Thatguy]

13 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

As for Bandidos, I'd love for them to do half of what a 10 SS model does

I think most beater models outperform cheaper minions at combat. But the bandidos can also do stuff that Mad Dog can't. Like be in two places at once or get added value from Drop it triggers via Trigger Finger.

Also I think it's hard to compare Mad Dog to an equivalent soul stone value of anything. He is pretty stellar as far as 10ss Henchmen go. Like sees lots of play OOK and has one of the most punishing ranged attacks in the game, outperforming many ranged Masters. 

Bandidos are good 5ss minions. But few models gets to be stellar at that price point like Necropunks or Tanuki. 

[ShinChan]

6 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I think most beater models outperform cheaper minions at combat. But the bandidos can also do stuff that Mad Dog can't. Like be in two places at once or get added value from Drop it triggers via Trigger Finger.

Also I think it's hard to compare Mad Dog to an equivalent soul stone value of anything. He is pretty stellar as far as 10ss Henchmen go. Like sees lots of play OOK and has one of the most punishing ranged attacks in the game, outperforming many ranged Masters. 

Bandidos are good 5ss minions. But few models gets to be stellar at that price point like Necropunks or Tanuki. 

Mad Dog overperforms what? Have you even heard about Fuhatsu? lol

Mad Dog is a good model for 10ss, but not stellar. He's seen OOK because Blow it to Hell and Outcast not having a good versatile ranged option (sorry Hans).

[Thatguy]

13 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Mad Dog is a good model for 10ss, but not stellar

I've had Mad Dog delete my Whiskey Golem in one activation too many times to see him as anything other than stellar. It's too the point where I usually don't bother bringing armored stuff versus Outcasts.

[RisingPhoenix]

I think a lot of people are being very aspirational when reading cards and imagining that every ability on the front of a card will all go off when in fact most games few or none of them will.  But my point was that all of Malifaux has a problem with cheap models, and specifically cheap minions not being worth anywhere near their soulstone cost, and this needs to be fixed at a systemic level across the entire game, so there's no point in discussing any individual one.  If you are hung up on one example, just imagine I said some other cheap model like "Abomination" instead. 

Most of the models in the game at those costs could use to be at least looked at, especially all the ones that can't be summoned.  So there's no point in doing it onesy twosy.