Which Outcast models do you think needs some fix the most?

[Thatguy]

7 hours ago, S4lt said:

Outside of Mad Dog and Sue most of the Bandit Keyword is lacklustre. 

I think Bandidos and Dead Outlaws are pretty good for what they are, 5 and 6 ss minions. Run and gun is pretty great. Being able to store or transfer AP with Life of Crime is pretty great. Dead Outlaw's covetous cravings is a great ability that doesn't do much in a crew where Sue and them are the only ones without Life of Crime.

[admiralvorkraft]

Dead Outlaw is pretty brilliant in a Jack Daw crew. I don't know how much you can tweak it in Bandit without making it problematic in Tormented. 

[ShinChan]

5 hours ago, S4lt said:

Outside of Mad Dog and Sue most of the Bandit Keyword is lacklustre. 

Even Sue is very situational.

11 hours ago, Zebo said:

A couple of days ago, I played with Parker vs Marcus and the Convict Gunslinger was very dissapointing. Failed to kill anything (even the Order Initiate survived him) and one Cerberus killed him in one activation even with the soooo gooood HtK from Soldier for Hire. 

Too much dependant of luck for a 8ss model wich only strength is supposedly being killy. 

 

EDIT:

Also, the Bandido was quite unimpressive. Their attacks quite weak, no mobility, any endurance... I managed to land my first three At Gun Point attacks ever, and for such a difficult attack, it's very useless. It should at least add to the effect a card draw if the enemy decides to discard (Stick Up style) because you need too many loops for such weak effect. 

I have to say that Marcus is always going to be a big problem for Parker due to Disguised+ Stealth and all the mobility the crew has.

But I agree with you. Convict Gunslingers are 1ss to expensive for what they bring to the table. Wokou riders are between situational and useless.

The Bandidos are just "meh", usually you'll be saving your stones to bring something else. Although I used to bring 1 almost every game, since it was a cheap activation, but right now their best use is to die for Hidden Martyrs. If at least they had the defensive trigger printed + some real utility related to scheme markers. That could make them a bit better.

Bayou Smugglers are only good to build a Parker list with a card generation-engine with Benny, so you'll have 29 stones sit drawing you cards and doing mostly nothing else.

[Zebo]

I've played a Freikorps vs Chimera game recently an god how bad is the friking Drachen!! Specially when compared with a Sabertooh Cerberus. 

 

Also, the crew needs lots of resources that simply can't generate. They need some card draw. 

 

I can't but compare them with Marcus and is insulting. Between better upgrades that don't disappear after the first use, the card draw, the mobility and the damage output... 

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, Zebo said:

I've played a Freikorps vs Chimera game recently an god how bad is the friking Drachen!! Specially when compared with a Sabertooh Cerberus. 

 

Also, the crew needs lots of resources that simply can't generate. They need some card draw. 

 

I can't but compare them with Marcus and is insulting. Between better upgrades that don't disappear after the first use, the card draw, the mobility and the damage output... 

Huh.

I would completely disagree. Yeah the Drachen is a bad pick into Chimera, but there are a lot of bad Chimera models... and otherwise, I think you may have just been caught off guard.

Now, if you'd made this post about comparting Freikorps and Wastrel that would be a different story...

[Zebo]

2 cerberus + ss cache

Blessed

SS miner + Magical training. 

14 ss left. For example a Silent one + 7ss, Mechanical Rider + 3ss...

No need for more, in fact, although you could always hire Myranda or Cojo as well. 

[admiralvorkraft]

A Cerberus with SS cache is a ten stone model, you're getting Arik or Hannah for the same cost. Both of which are generally better models than a Cerberus but also serve as partial counters to it (Gravity Well and Counterspell respectively).

Magical Training is busted, but that's a Magical Training problem not a Chimera problem. Blessed is good, but so are Librarians and Engineers. And yeah, Chimera is a larger hiring pool, but it includes things like Molemen, so it's not that much larger.

Von Schill is significantly more impactful on the field than Marcus. The upgrades are very different, I would say Rocket Boots is the single best upgrade either master hands out. Von Schill's action that hands out upgrades has more and better triggers, Marcus' is slightly cheaper. 

I can see how handing out stealth would be an issue for you to deal with, but it's not like you don't have options.

There's nothing wrong with facing a new master for the first time and getting caught off guard, I just think you're being a little reactionary here.

[Zebo]

Sorry, one leap is not better than Flight + +1 Mv + Butterfly Jump. Or than Disguised + Stealth. 

And one Charge through is way worse than unlimited Charge Through + Onslaught. 

Mutation Upgrades are quite better than Equipment. Period. 

[Thatguy]

9 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Mutation Upgrades are quite better than Equipment. Period. 

Which mutation upgrade gives me a rocket launcher?

[ShinChan]

13 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Which mutation upgrade gives me a rocket launcher?

Or a leap! Put a leap on Arik and suddenly he can hit you twice from 13" away, doesn't matter the terrain. Actually that Leap is going to allow you to hit the Cerberus twice, even if it has butterfly jump or disguised. If it has both, just concentrate and hit him for 6 damages.

Cats are good? Definitely, but not that good vs a crew that has a bunch of armor and healing.

[Zebo]

4 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Or a leap! Put a leap on Arik and suddenly he can hit you twice from 13" away, doesn't matter the terrain. Actually that Leap is going to allow you to hit the Cerberus twice, even if it has butterfly jump or disguised. If it has both, just concentrate and hit him for 6 damages.

Cats are good? Definitely, but not that good vs a crew that has a bunch of armor and healing.

Cerberus and Blessed don't need leap. 

If Arik Charges he cannot leap. 

And if he concentrates, the Cerberus can spend a SS and put another negative to that damage flip. 

 

Good thing the armor +2, thought 

[admiralvorkraft]

4 hours ago, Zebo said:

Sorry, one leap is not better than Flight + +1 Mv + Butterfly Jump. Or than Disguised + Stealth. 

And one Charge through is way worse than unlimited Charge Through + Onslaught. 

Mutation Upgrades are quite better than Equipment. Period. 

Except they aren't. You can't compare them directly because they're context - both within the game and the crew - are totally different. 

Sure the wings may give you more total movement over the course of the game if it goes on turn one, and Butterfly Jump is undeniably good. But VS can throw boots on just about any model in his crew and have them immediately leap out of activation and that can straight up win games. Marcus can't do that. Plus, giving shielded to an armor +2 beater is straight up great even if you never use Got Your Back. 

And again, Marcus applies upgrades and pushes friendly models. That's basically it. 

Von Schill has two good attacks (including the Pull! trigger), Shouting Orders, Got Your Back. He does a lot more than just apply the upgrade. 

[Zebo]

4 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Except they aren't. You can't compare them directly because they're context - both within the game and the crew - are totally different. 

You have been the one saying that Rocket Boots is the best upgrade, which means that the rest are worse by comparison. I simply disagree. 

 

6 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

VS can throw boots on just about any model in his crew and have them immediately leap out of activation and that can straight up win games. Marcus can't do that.

Vs needs a 5 + a 7 to do this. Marcus can make a beast move its movement with a single 6. It's not exactly the same, but very similar and way easier. 

 

9 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

And again, Marcus applies upgrades and pushes friendly models. That's basically it. 

Von Schill has two good attacks (including the Pull! trigger), Shouting Orders, Got Your Back. He does a lot more than just apply the upgrade. 

Marcus's attack isn't worse than Von Schill's one, with that Pouncing Strike, and Marcus can draw a lot of cards, which is at least in the same level of Shouting Orders. 

 

Von Schill is my most played Master, and Marcus is my most faced Master, so I've played a lot of Freikorps vs Chimera games, and I'm quite aware of each crew strengths and weaknesses. Marcus isn't by any means unbeatable with Von Schill, but mutations>Equipment and Cerberus>Drachen Trooper. 

Having to discard the Equipment after the first use is too much of a handicap. Equipment should be better than they are now. 

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Plus, giving shielded to an armor +2 beater is straight up great even if you never use Got Your Back. 

Shielded is pretty huge in a crew where everyone has armor. With Engineers and healing a lot of times models get into "don't even bother" territory.

[admiralvorkraft]

10 hours ago, Zebo said:

You have been the one saying that Rocket Boots is the best upgrade, which means that the rest are worse by comparison. I simply disagree. 

And I maintain, in the context of the broader game, yes Rocket Boots is the best upgrade. But I value in-the-moment flexibility over building value turn-by-turn when I'm making these judgements, so that's a bias right there. I'm also valuing the master AP resource over stones/cards.

Speaking of which - you say that Marcus is drawing a bunch of cards. He gets a card for discarding his own mutation upgrades when he activates, but then all I'm seeing is an unsuited Surge trigger and card draw when friendly beasts discard their upgrades. That doesn't seem like a ton to me, am I missing something? 

Admittedly Freikorps doesn't have much in keyword resource generation, but there's the Librarian's Surge trigger, plus we have the Prospector and the Engineer has Tools for the Job so it's not like we have no hand sculpting/card draw tech. None of it is as good as Arcane Reservoir, but that's a Magical Training issue, not a Chimera issue. 

Look, I'm not saying Marcus is bad. I'm not excited by what he does compared to other support masters, but he's not bad. But Freikorps brings a whole lot to the table that he just doesn't. Sure you have to manage your resources well, but that is just part of the game. I played a lot of Lucius in 2nd Ed (even pre-errata) so I get it, the struggle is real. But different crews are going to have different strengths and weaknesses.

The strength of the Equipment is that they give Actions, they can take a model with a well defined role (say a slow, stompy tank) and transform it for a turn in a way that radically alters game-state. The weakness is once you use the big action it goes away. The strength of the Mutations is that they stick around and give passive benefits so you can generate value over multiple turns, the weakness is that a lot of those abilities (Serrated Teeth, Armored Plates) are pretty situational so how much value are they really generating? All the benefits are passive, and they just take models and make them generally better - they don't open up new opportunities (aside from maybe Feathered Wings, which is far and away the best mutation upgrade). And they're on a master with a bad (for a master) attack, and basically nothing else going on.

And yeah, the Cerberus is good, the Drachen Trooper is very situational. I'm not sure why you're stuck on comparing them. Just don't run the Drachen Trooper? And especially if your opponent is running the Cerberus's w/Soulstone Cache - compare them to Hannah and Arik because they are 10ss models. 

[Zebo]

Because for some unknown reason, I keep giving chances to Drachen Trooper. Although I already know he's not gonna nicely surprise me. 

(It's not an unknown reason. It's because flamethrowers) 

[admiralvorkraft]

You know what? That's fair. Poor guy needs some love. I spent much of M2E trying to figure out how to put Santana Ortega on the board. 

[Adran]

23 hours ago, Zebo said:

Sorry, one leap is not better than Flight + +1 Mv + Butterfly Jump. Or than Disguised + Stealth. 

And one Charge through is way worse than unlimited Charge Through + Onslaught. 

Mutation Upgrades are quite better than Equipment. Period. 

I've given it some thought, and I disagree, I would rather 1 leap than +1 mv, flight and butterfly jump in most occasions. The leap will cover more ground unless you walk 7 times. And even then the speed of movement in 1 turn is very helpful. So for a scheme runner I prefer leap unless the board is completely severe or walls all over the place. 

For a character that I want in combat, butterfly jump is good, but a lot of the time it would only have minimal gain from the flight and movement, where as leap gives the ability to engage where you want or disengage where you want , so probably more useful for most beaters.  But I might over like leap.

And if you read the Marcus threads one of the biggest complaint about the upgrades is that you can't get them back if they are on the " wrong" model. 

[Trample]

On 2/6/2021 at 2:03 PM, Adran said:

I've given it some thought, and I disagree, I would rather 1 leap than +1 mv, flight and butterfly jump in most occasions. The leap will cover more ground unless you walk 7 times. And even then the speed of movement in 1 turn is very helpful. So for a scheme runner I prefer leap unless the board is completely severe or walls all over the place. 

I agree with is leap > +1 mv, flight, and butterfly jump, but the feathered wings upgrade remains with the model. Each of those abilities (or stat bonus) can be used multiple times while the leap is single use. The leap is more likely to help you score a point or get into a critical position, and so the Rocket Boots upgrade could still be the better upgrade, but the semi-permanency of Feathered Wings is really attractive. 

[Adran]

3 hours ago, Trample said:

I agree with is leap > +1 mv, flight, and butterfly jump, but the feathered wings upgrade remains with the model. Each of those abilities (or stat bonus) can be used multiple times while the leap is single use. The leap is more likely to help you score a point or get into a critical position, and so the Rocket Boots upgrade could still be the better upgrade, but the semi-permanency of Feathered Wings is really attractive. 

My view was that 1 leap gives me more movement than 6 movement actions with +1 wk. And Flight can be used every turn, but on most maps its probably only used once or twice to real effect, and that's normally the critical time when you would use your leap. So when you are looking at model mobility you probably don't gain any mobility even though the upgrade stays for the whole game versus 1 use. (Of course some models attack Mv, which I didn't really allow for).

And in many cases the model that I want butterfly jump on is going to be a model I want in Combat, so will probably take even fewer movement actions, so most of the time the 1 leap provides better use for picking the combat to fight in. 

I'm basing a lot of this on experience from M2 where you had the choice of a bonus movement (+1 wk and unimpeded)upgrade or discard for fast, and I always prefered 1 use of fast over the scramble upgrade except when the board had lots of terrain that the unimpeded would give that much more  (I think I took scramble once, on Bishop who has 3 actions, and when the board had a 1ft wide river that was severe down the middle of the board, for all other times I preferred the extra Action rather than the boost the the actions I was taking) 

Of course, there is never a time I have to choose between the two upgrades, but if I did I think I would choose Rocket Boots over Feathered Wings more often. Other people may view things differently, and it is possible we would both be right. (we might also both be wrong). 

[whitters]

+1 for making the Drachen trooper attack ignore concealing.

What I would really like for them is ruthless ( for the mental image if nothing else) .

For Lazarus I would make him a Henchman or at least make him attuned then reduce the TN of assimilation to 12.

For Normal Freikorps troopers maybe give them a "Flare" trigger for +1 burning so they can synergise a bit with drachen troopers.

[touchdown]

What if Laz got equipment training? It would give him something to do with his wounds (since there's basically no reason for your opponent to attack him), increase synergy in the crew, give him more utility, and make sure he always has a useful bonus.

[Da Git]

On 2/11/2021 at 4:36 AM, touchdown said:

What if Laz got equipment training? It would give him something to do with his wounds (since there's basically no reason for your opponent to attack him), increase synergy in the crew, give him more utility, and make sure he always has a useful bonus.

This would be so awesome! Wyrd, make it so!

[RisingPhoenix]

Like, well, all of Malifaux 3rd Edition, the Outcasts' 4-5 soulstone models are nearly unplayable (with a few exceptions). That list includes:

• Desperate Mercenary
• Bandido
• Winged Plague
• Student of Conflict

Since this is a problem that's epidemic to the entirety of M3E, nothing really needs to be said.  Outside of that, these are the culprits:

Talos

One of the most singularly useless models ever devised, Talos does shitall.  He does impressively shitall.  He does so shitall that other completely worthless models take notes on how to be more useless from observing him.  He is slow (5 Mv), has a 1" melee attack, and two actions, with no movement tech whatsoever. He also has no ranged attack, and no Bodyguard.

Really that just about summarizes it.  He can't move, and he looks ugly while doing so. Since he cannot move, he cannot pick his targets, which means that he gets engaged on.  With 7 wounds, anything engaging on him can handle his armor +2, and then kills him.  Gee. 

This model needs to be reworked from practically the ground up. 

Lazarus

Kind of the Talos problem, but much simpler to solve.  He has a giant AOE cannon.  You know what else the Friekorps has in abundance?  AOE.  They have an AOE rocket launcher, AOE flamethrowers, AOE shockwaves from Arik, built in blasts from Hannah, even the Librarian can get blasts. 

Remove Grenade Launcher Add in Heavy Cannon (6)  3/4/6, this action may only be taken once a turn.  Trigger Armor Piercing.

Bam there we go, now Lazarus brings some much-needed anti-armor to the crew.

Aionus

Buffering - Remove "discard a pass token" cost. 

Sever Timeline - Add back in crow, make Fleeting Moments trigger Enemy Only.  Add Arcane Surge trigger. 

Beyond Time - Change to "This model has LOS to all buried models, and may consider a buried model within range for any attack or ability." 

Convict Gunslinger

Option 1 (Binary Option):  Attack gains

Option 2 (Safe option): Cost 7

[Zebo]

While agree with Desperate Mercs, Winged Plague and SoC, there's many people out there liking Bandidos. 

 

Agreed with Talos needing rework. I think I would built a in the hammer, and would make Steal Essence heal him the same amount than damage dealt. Some trigger in Into the Furnace wouldn't be bad either. 

 

Agree with Lazarus needing rework, disagree with the suggestion. Not because it wouldn't make him better, but because his gun is a Gatling grenade launcher. That fix isn't gonna happen. 

As previously said, changing his Grit for Rapid Fire is the way. 

 

Aionus may need help, but those changes would make both him and the whole crew way too powerful. Think that Beyond Time is on every non-Talos Obliteration model. And forcing enemies to pass activations at no cost is just crazy xD. 

Cannot give good advice about him though, not played enough to see a good fix. 

 

Agree with Convict Gunslinger needing help, although both options would make them too good IMHO. 

Also mandatory to say that in every game I hire them, they perform well.