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Which Outcast models do you think needs some fix the most?


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On 1/24/2021 at 3:53 AM, Zebo said:

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Drachen Trooper: they simply are not worth. As an 8ss model, they seem capable of a lot of disrupting (they can set models on fire, move enemy models, remove conditions, remove markers and place pyre markers) but in the end all those effects are quite situational and hard to achieve. As the only model in the crew causing burning, you can forgot about the Pyre dropping (he must shoot twice the same target before being able to use that trigger). The Mass Hysteria is an unsuited trigger, the marker removal is very short ranged, and the damage is unimpressive. 

Its Flamethrower could have the same triggers than the ones in the Conflagration action from kaeris (Smolder, Raging Inferno and Burn It All) along with the already Mass Hysteria. Maybe add Mass Hysteria to their Move or Burn action. And it really would be interesting if he could remove all non-pyre markers with its bonus action, instead of only the destructible markers. 

 


 

These guys aren't useful very often, but when you want one they can be very effective. Their ability to clear certain conditions, remove corpse & scrap markers, and remove destructible terrain is pretty fantastic. If you think McCabe is going to ride in and pepper your crew with his netgun the trooper can save your bacon. If I don't need to do any of those things I would never take him, but he does have his uses, so I wouldn't go out of my way to fix him.

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Because for some unknown reason, I keep giving chances to Drachen Trooper. Although I already know he's not gonna nicely surprise me.  (It's not an unknown reason. It's because flamethrowers) 

I don't understand the Obident Wretch nerf talk. There are 3 models in the game with Bleeding disease, 1 Master, 1 Henchman, 1 Enforcer, and that is somehow too powerful? It's an auto tak

Yeah, I think when it comes to evaluating a model like the Wretch a few normal assumptions get warped by how much it relies on the Keyword. I mean, do I think it's undoubtedly the best 5 stone model i

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3 hours ago, Davos said:

I think the largest overarching problem with the Freikrop as a whole is its incredibly card intensive: between VS/trunks attaching upgrades (TN needing 5 & 6 respectively), TN needing 7 (Grenade Belt), 4 (Land Mines) 7 (Leapy boots) 5 (Rocket Launcher-Blow it to Hell), Hannah's Bous action (especially if she's copying another bonus action), Librarian's heal (TN needing 6 + the actual heal flip, as healing for 1 feels really bad), Engineer need to DISCARD a card AND flip a 5 for Strengthen armor, Reference the Field Guide on Freikorpsmann, the bonus actions on steam trunk, and Shouting Orders for Focus.  

You're insanely strained on cards.  So sure.  you can get a 3/4/6 damage track, but your hand's empty and you're trustying a topdeck to YOLO your way to victory.

OR, in the (worse) situation, you have 19 things you need to do, but only 7 cards in hand, of which only 3?4?5? (if you're insanely lucky) actually hit the TN you NEED, without you spending a severe to heal a model for 1.

Its just insanely expensive to do all the "things" that make the Freikorp unique.  Which I think would stand as a perfect chance to FINALLY give them an actual Keyword unifying ability (only Keyword in the game without one); something with card draw based on the "specialize" Freikorp unique thing they're doing

....18 months? into 3E and i'm TOTALLY not still salty they don't have a Keyword ability...

And no.  You cannot include Armor as a "keyword ability"

At least you have 7 cards in hand and many ways to cycle cards. Tri-Chi is way worse at reaching and only has 6 cards in hand.

Maybe because you actually have to choose which of those things you need to prioritize instead of trying to do everything.

3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Other than Hannah's Arcane reservoir there aren't any good ways to go up cards. Engineers fix but don't draw. One of the reasons that I think Engineers are good is that they can add the suit without going down cards. With Freikropsman it's more of a desperation/surprise ability. Like you really need that extra couple points of damage or most of the crew is dead, freeing up cards.

You have Prospectors and Librarians with "printed" Surge trigger.

7 hours ago, Zebo said:

They can be very good, but also can kill your hand in late turn, when you keep those few hig cards/severes in hand and realizes that you must get rid of one just to try to use their bonus (you know, those turns in which you need to make your beaters/schemer go first and your cards starts flying from your hand trying to keep them alive/make them do their thing, then you have like a couple of severes and one 9-10 kept in hand just in case and you must discard one of them for the Engineer... Not very funny. Specially when you don't flip the 5 and you must decide if burning another high card or just let it go. 

Their attack is not bad, but neither impressive. It's ok for their cost. 

I keep asking me what sense has the Sabotage ability in them. Any kind of sinergy there, or just wasted ink?

Why do you think is Strong? I see him and not saying he's weak, but really can't figure a good use for him, out of waiting for him to die soon so he can be summoned again in the fifth turn. 

I've played against list without Arik and Hannah, and either lose or had a terrible time against them. Engineers are an amazing 6ss model.

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As a new (Freikorps) player I have very little to offer except that I see no point including a Drachen Trooper.
Tried him once. Did not do too bad but not even close worth 8 points.*

Which is a shame.

* Note I also have a Jack Daw crew and comparing a "hanged" (same 8 points!) with a Drachen Trooper makes you cry. 😕

 

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7 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

You have Prospectors and Librarians with "printed" Surge trigger.

I somehow forgot that. They have to ping someone to do it, but a single wound is almost always worth a draw. You have to connect though. Definitely more useful on low WP crews.

14 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Tri-Chi is way worse at reaching and only has 6 cards in hand.

I find that most of the time Tri-Chi isn't hurting for cards. I run a lot of Fermented river monks, and Too Drunk to Care defensively and Chi tokens, and maybe focus they are very consistent models.  A lot of the rest of the crew is sitting on 6s offensively and defensively, which also helps.

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3 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I somehow forgot that. They have to ping someone to do it, but a single wound is almost always worth a draw. You have to connect though. Definitely more useful on low WP crews.

I find that most of the time Tri-Chi isn't hurting for cards. I run a lot of Fermented river monks, and Too Drunk to Care defensively and Chi tokens, and maybe focus they are very consistent models.  A lot of the rest of the crew is sitting on 6s offensively and defensively, which also helps.

You can attack your own models for 1 damage, bring the Emissary and they will heal just by activating.

Tri-Chi's TNs:

  • Tanukis: 7 :crow,7 :crow,7
  • Fingers needs 3:crow 
  • Brewie need a 3 :crow 
  • Wesley needs a 7
  • Akaname 5+
  • Monks/Moon Shinobi 5+
  • Cooper Jones 8+ and 5+
  • Popcorn Turner 5+

And they're definitely more suit hungry than Freikorps. Anyway it was a comparison, to probe that Freikorps don't need to be able to do everything every turn.

I though this thread was supposed to talk about the worst models in Outcasts, and Freikorps as a keyword are not in the bottom in the power-scale. I do agree however that Drachen trooper is too niche for his cost and they will almost never see the table as a regular pick, but not much because they're bad, but because Freikorps has better option in and outside keyword.

Lazarus is another model that could use some love, but the crazy comparison with Merris is just nuts. Merris' shockwave is garbage compared with Lazarus (any of them) and being able to remove scheme markers from 13" away without requiring LoS is great, and the same goes for his trigger in melee.

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40 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Lazarus is another model that could use some love, but the crazy comparison with Merris is just nuts. Merris' shockwave is garbage compared with Lazarus (any of them) and being able to remove scheme markers from 13" away without requiring LoS is great, and the same goes for his trigger in melee.

He has good triggers with no way to guarantee you can do them when you need them. Assimilate is way too expensive to cheat unless you get the trigger. Juggernaut almost never comes up because there is no incentive to attack him.

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Laz almost needs a reverse Grit ability. While ABOVE half health he can take the gun action rather than BELOW

And yeah... Drachen can use a buff. The pyre dropping trigger doesn't work. You need 3 Burning BEFORE the attack... so you need 2 hits before the third one? with a non-suited trigger?

He's slow too... in the fluff it's stated that these guys are a bit unhinged as they go charging into battle...

The other problem is that he's outshone by the Rocket launcher which does the same thing minus burning. Some ideas

Rush (with run and gun maybe?) or Creep along & +1 Mv

Quick shot trigger on knife

Ignore Concealing & Cover (it's a flamethrower! The main use of them was that they ignored terrain)

Built in change the Pyre dropping trigger to needing 3 burning AFTER hitting or just a new to turn blasts into Pyres (Really like this one actually!)

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Run & Gun on the Drachen would be awesome!

What about dropping a Pyre marker automatically if you kill a model with the flamethrower?

 

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What if Lazurus just lost the gun symbol on his shockwave? Would that be enough to make him worthwhile? He could still be a decent tank in most situations, but wouldn't get locked in to combat so easily. 

Perhaps he could also have a couple of triggers on his shockwave that represent different grenade types. Perhaps a targeted grenade which allows Freikorps to ignore it, maybe a concussion grenade blown back trigger, and a condition-inducing sonic grenade (slow & staggered). 

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About the Drachen Trooper, he has a lot of potential to be a disruption piece for the enemy's game, but is so circumstantial or hard to achieve that ends being, in fact, ineffective. 

He can move at the enemy, but very little distance and only with an unsuited trigger. 

He can drop hazardous terrain markers, but again with an unsuited trigger and only after three successful attacks. 

He can destroy terrain markers, but with a very short range. 

The best thing he can do is to remove some conditions in friendly models. 

Agree with the "ignore cover and concealment" Idea. That's how a flamethrower should work. 

Also, I would change his Flamewall trigger for the Raging Inferno trigger (the same than Kaeris) and probably would add the Burn It All trigger that also have Kaeris. And probably add a mask to the attack stat. 

 

About Lazarus, although I missed him in my initial post, he was fine in the Beta before the nerf, so I can't imagine another solution, although Da Git idea of reversing the Grit ability is a good idea, and removes the annoying discard. 

 

And, not sure about the Librarian. I always hire one in Freikorps crews, and sometimes she does a surprising good job dealing damage, but as a 7ss healer she really doesn't helps so much IMHO. There's other 7/6 ss models that heals equal or better wirh better support options (although less pure damage output). Not saying she's bad, but really feels a bit meh. 

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Run n gun seems perfect for the Drachen Trooper. He's still slower and shorter range than most of the Freikorps so that lets him keep up without changing the fact it's a slow model that can't scheme.

Ignoring cover and concealment sounds fun but I'm not sure it's strictly necessary.

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I don't think Run & Gun fits well with the Drachen Trooper, although could be excused by their impetuous behavior. 

But ignoring cover and concealment helps and fits perfectly with a flamethrower. Even ignoring HtW (make those damn zombies burn!) but that's a whole other thing xD. 

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Run & Gun with a flamethrower deserves a Darwin Award.

Although, ignoring Cover or Concealment would definitely fit for them, and the "Burn It All" trigger should definitively be in their card. Since Outcasts do not have any marker removal (like any type or marker, not only destructible) they could even see some play OOK.

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3 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Since Outcasts do not have any marker removal (like any type or marker, not only destructible) they could even see some play OOK.

.... but Infamous does!

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The models that need the most help and are pretty unplayable right now..

 

Desperate Mercs

Wrastlers

Winged Plague 

Talos

Drachen Trooper

Lazarus

Malifaux Child

 

Models that can work but need a little help.

 

Taelor

Bandidos

Barbaros

Hans

 

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Wrasters most definitely are not broken. They are of limited use, but what you use them for (marker removal & condition removal) they excel at!

Malifaux Child, also in Infamous, is gloriously to drop more Pianos. How is 8 Pianos a turn not amazing?! Also, my friend uses the Child in Amalgam to copy Draw Essence for free when Hidden Martyrs is in the pool. Malifaux Child is solidly mid... nothing is broken on that kid at all.

I only use Barbaros as a Leader to play some messed up Outcast Nephilim crews, and for that alone as a three action Bring It "lure" into that heavy melee crew, he is so good! 

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I think Malifaux Child isn't in a bad spot. 3ss for a versatile model that can improve the crew mechanics is fine. Maybe lose when compared with the Changeling, but Changeling is 5ss out of kw, so a good help to their crew but not very valuable on faction. If the child were only a bit better maybe would be an autoinclude for every list, and also isn't a good thing. 

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6 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Malifaux Child, also in Infamous, is gloriously to drop more Pianos. How is 8 Pianos a turn not amazing?!

Does this work? Child can't target Earl because he doesn't cost more and Zipp's drop is once per Turn. 

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4 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Doesn't that mean Zipp and the Child can both do it one per turn?

I did a quick "once per Turn" search in the FAQ and didn't see an answer. It definitely would stop a single model from doing it out of activation but idk about Copying. 

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1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

I did a quick "once per Turn" search in the FAQ and didn't see an answer. It definitely would stop a single model from doing it out of activation but idk about Copying. 

Once per turn is once per turn per model, so yes if someone copies it it doesn't stop zipp doing it. ( I can't remember the page but it's core rules under once per...).

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55 minutes ago, Adran said:

Once per turn is once per turn per model, so yes if someone copies it it doesn't stop zipp doing it. ( I can't remember the page but it's core rules under once per...).

You're right. Page 33.

Screenshot_20210128-135916.png

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A couple of days ago, I played with Parker vs Marcus and the Convict Gunslinger was very dissapointing. Failed to kill anything (even the Order Initiate survived him) and one Cerberus killed him in one activation even with the soooo gooood HtK from Soldier for Hire. 

Too much dependant of luck for a 8ss model wich only strength is supposedly being killy. 

 

EDIT:

Also, the Bandido was quite unimpressive. Their attacks quite weak, no mobility, any endurance... I managed to land my first three At Gun Point attacks ever, and for such a difficult attack, it's very useless. It should at least add to the effect a card draw if the enemy decides to discard (Stick Up style) because you need too many loops for such weak effect. 

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5 hours ago, Zebo said:

A couple of days ago, I played with Parker vs Marcus and the Convict Gunslinger was very dissapointing. Failed to kill anything (even the Order Initiate survived him) and one Cerberus killed him in one activation even with the soooo gooood HtK from Soldier for Hire. 

Too much dependant of luck for a 8ss model wich only strength is supposedly being killy. 

 

EDIT:

Also, the Bandido was quite unimpressive. Their attacks quite weak, no mobility, any endurance... I managed to land my first three At Gun Point attacks ever, and for such a difficult attack, it's very useless. It should at least add to the effect a card draw if the enemy decides to discard (Stick Up style) because you need too many loops for such weak effect. 

Outside of Mad Dog and Sue most of the Bandit Keyword is lacklustre. 

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