Which Outcast models do you think needs some fix the most?

[Zebo]

Which models do you think needs to be fixed the most? 

Lately, we've been discussing about the utility or usefulness of some models, and I really would like to know in which models more people agreed to be tuned up or down. 

 

My thoughts. 

 

Winged Plague: those are some of the worst 4ss models in the game. Poor attack, poor resilience, mediocre mobility and no support to their crew. 4ss models are a bit hard to design because if they are not specialized in some role, they en being plain bad, but this models have the profile of a specialized model that does something really useful, and because of that they are poor in all the other things, but without doing anything good, only the bad side. 

They could improve their mobility with some bonus action like Fly With Me, or maybe increase their blight generation with some kind of pulse like Drink Spirit. I would go through a Drink Spirit-ish pulse with Reposition Trigger in-built. 

 

Obedient Wretch: this could be (and is IMHO) the best 5ss model in the game. The damage that this model can do is simply overpowered. I would erase Bleeding Disease from this model, would turn down the Tossed Rat damage to 1/2/3, quit the gun symbol, add a crow to the Stat and add the Black Dead trigger to it. So she could be doing up to 3/4/5 damage to a model with blight, which keeps being amazing for a 5ss model, or could be summoning rats from enemies, but no more auto 5-8 damage because yes. 

 

Desperate Mercenaries: those are side by side with the Winged Plague in the race to be the worst 4ss models. They seem supposed to be long range support for their crew, but their Rapid Fire ability is waste ink in a model with a weak 1 ranged attack. Change their damage to 2/3/4 and they would become useful. Or change the Rapid Fire for some other thing that actually helps them to support from range. 

Yes, a 1/3/5 focused shot is nice, but having to discard a card to maybe do an extra 1 damage doesn't feel right. 

 

Those three models are the ones I think need changes the most. There are others that are not exactly bad, but a bit of help wouldn't be a bad idea. 

 

Taelor: a painful niche model. She needs too many resources to be really helpful in a crew with 2 ss/cards hungry masters. I would like to see some synergy with her crew rather than give her drunky abilities, as some people are suggesting, but it's not easy. 

 

Drachen Trooper: they simply are not worth. As an 8ss model, they seem capable of a lot of disrupting (they can set models on fire, move enemy models, remove conditions, remove markers and place pyre markers) but in the end all those effects are quite situational and hard to achieve. As the only model in the crew causing burning, you can forgot about the Pyre dropping (he must shoot twice the same target before being able to use that trigger). The Mass Hysteria is an unsuited trigger, the marker removal is very short ranged, and the damage is unimpressive. 

Its Flamethrower could have the same triggers than the ones in the Conflagration action from kaeris (Smolder, Raging Inferno and Burn It All) along with the already Mass Hysteria. Maybe add Mass Hysteria to their Move or Burn action. And it really would be interesting if he could remove all non-pyre markers with its bonus action, instead of only the destructible markers. 

 

Hodgepodge Effigy: since it didn't seem at all as the best Effigy, it doesn't makes any sense that ours is the only one with Df 4 instead of 5.

 

Von Schill: I'll never get tired of asking to return his weak 3 damage in a gun with so mediocre trigger. Change the My Loyal Servant trigger for the most easy and intuitive Mend. 

 

Student of Conflict: not sure why, but I can't do this model to actually do nothing really interesting in my games. The Mercenary crew is so mobile that she ends too far behind unable to actually do something, although it could perfectly be my lack of ability. Maybe some trigger on Covetous Cravings to move (Reposition, You're Comin with Me, etc…). Something like Analyze Weakness would make of her a good support piece capable of doing else more apart from exchanging actions with allies. 

 

Big Jake: not exactly a bad model, but Unexpected return should point that the new summoned Big Jake counts as the original for schemes and strategies purposes, as it looks like should be. 

 

[Jesy Blue]

With the Starter Box on the horizon, Catalan Snipers are probably going to put a nail in the coffin that are Desperate Mercenary; it will probably have to do something drastic like just drop the cost to 2 or 3 to even be considered (unless the new Minions are like 7-8 Soul Stones each, which would be a crying shame).

Drachen I only take in very specific situations, then they're fine.... but I do fight December a lot so I may be biased. I have yet to play Umbra, but I bet it might be similar.  They are a waste in any other crew build.  I also wish they were cheaper.

Lazarus needs help.  It should have a regular attack & a Shockwave. Assimalate is really only useful out of keyword.

Von Schill upgrades from a pistol to a rifle so obviously his damage output goes down... that's just science! (no it is not)  Oddly enough, Viktoria is the only flat min 3 damage Master in the faction.

[Davos]

6 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Von Schill upgrades from a pistol to a rifle so obviously his damage output goes down... that's just science! (no it is not)  Oddly enough, Viktoria is the only flat min 3 damage Master in the faction.

Makes TOTAL sense.  Everyone knows pistols can punch through walls and rifles....can't?  

But in seriousness.  Ya, Drachen & Laz for sure need help to get Freikorps having a reason to even think about them (obviously ignoring the hyper-niche tech picks where you such up their trashness to bring)

I also think Viks needs...something.  Ideally something cross keyword synergistic, since there really isn't anything (besides the Viks themselves).  Taelor, I'd like to see her not-punished for Welcome to Malifaux (since its a 'on-paper'  crazy strong ability, when in actuality its...almost obsolete ).  Maybe soulstone cost drop?  Or something that plays in with the boozy theme she has in the fluff.

I'd like to see Deso Engines get either 1ss cheaper or at least DF4. But i'm just super biased on them for requiring an insane amount of perfect-stars-aligning to be useful.....also salty that they've been trash for me in a bunch of games...

 

[Thatguy]

9 hours ago, Zebo said:

Drachen Trooper: they simply are not worth.

I don't think they're bad. But Friekorps has since of the best minions in the game imo. I think they could use +1 move maybe. 

9 hours ago, Zebo said:

Big Jake:

I understand wanting to change big Jake for thematic reasons, but if it counts as the same model then he's going to be way way powerful for some schemes. Like an automatic second Vendetta point, as he can pop out of a model as far away from the fight as possible and has to be put down that turn.  He's already good for last turn scheme stuff.

[Davos]

3 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

But Friekorps has since of the best minions in the game imo

 

Which ones in-particular?  Cause theres a lot of minions out there that super trounce them I feel

 

[Cedar]

I think it's, in no particular order:

1. Winged Plagues - look at them, the look at Necropunks/Crooligans. Plagues have 4 Wds with no defensive tech. Festering Wounds is nice action, but you actually have to survive to use it.

2. Desperate Mercenaries - super bad model. I compare them to Hopeful Prospects, and their only advantage is being able to participate in Schemes - which means there is a chance they end up giving your opponent few points. For me they remain an option if you need cheap model for Hidden Martyrs (though you could hire Child for 1 SS less). 

3. Drachen Trooper - I can't imagine that somebody would hire them when you have Scouts, Librarians and Engineers. Maybe if Flamethrower would ignore Demise then they would remain niche pick against Hamelin/Som'er/Nexus.

4.

10 hours ago, Zebo said:

Big Jake: not exactly a bad model, but Unexpected return should point that the new summoned Big Jake counts as the original for schemes and strategies purposes, as it looks like should be.

This is good idea, I like it.

 

5. Taelor - there is whole another topic where people talk about why she is bad.

6. Talos - weird model - slow beater in a mobile crew. I'd give him Beyond Time, so he could hit buried models with his Hammer.

7.

10 hours ago, Zebo said:

Obedient Wretch: this could be (and is IMHO) the best 5ss model in the game. The damage that this model can do is simply overpowered. I would erase Bleeding Disease from this model, would turn down the Tossed Rat damage to 1/2/3, quit the gun symbol, add a crow to the Stat and add the Black Dead trigger to it. So she could be doing up to 3/4/5 damage to a model with blight, which keeps being amazing for a 5ss model, or could be summoning rats from enemies, but no more auto 5-8 damage because yes. 

I think removing Stealth/Tummy Aches would be enough, there is no need for complete model overhaul.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

 

I understand wanting to change big Jake for thematic reasons, but if it counts as the same model then he's going to be way way powerful for some schemes. Like an automatic second Vendetta point, as he can pop out of a model as far away from the fight as possible and has to be put down that turn.  He's already good for last turn scheme stuff.

I agree. Big Jake is already strong, and this would make him a sure two points in a lot of games.

Obedient Wretch, the model seems fine to me. It is a lot of work to get those blight tokens onto models, so I wouldn't say it is the wretch doing all that damage. And the model can already be one shot by a single focused attack. That said I haven't played against it that much, and maybe it is too strong against ranged crews. Manipulative AND stealth is certainly a lot of tech. EDIT: oh, I Forgot tummy aches. Yeah, not everyone has access to a model that can stay safe and run across the table to one shot the Wretch. That does seem a bit much.

[Davos]

I can't believe I forgot Talos.  I have no idea what he needs.  But i want to be able to play him SO MUCH.

 

I'm really really not a guy who cares about aesthetic on models.  Except for Talos (And Asteria & Twigge).  I ADORE the sculpt and wish I could find a reason to bring him

[Zebo]

I haven't faced Obedient Wretch, but I've played her a few times and really think it is too autoinclude for her cost. 

Hamelin Lures Twice any model, with some card/ss there, and hits the same target with the Staff, and you have a model with 5/7 blight tokens, injured+4/+5 and a couple of wounds. 

Then the OW finishes it with insulting easiness. 

 

I really like how Tumy Aches works with her, and the Stealth+Manipulation as being almost the same than those in Stolen (the OW seems an Evolved Stolen). So I would go through erasing the Bleeding Disease before the other abilities. 

 

I've only played Talos once, so I haven't enough experience with him to criticize, but they didn't gave him Beyond Time on purpose, so I would go another way. 

What about adding a crow to his hammer? I akso would add to Steal Essence: When resolving, this model heals an amount equal to the damage suffered.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I haven't faced Obedient Wretch, but I've played her a few times and really think it is too autoinclude for her cost. 

Hamelin Lures Twice any model, with some card/ss there, and hits the same target with the Staff, and you have a model with 5/7 blight tokens, injured+4/+5 and a couple of wounds. 

Then the OW finishes it with insulting easiness. 

 

I really like how Tumy Aches works with her, and the Stealth+Manipulation as being almost the same than those in Stolen (the OW seems an Evolved Stolen). So I would go through erasing the Bleeding Disease before the other abilities. 

Well, Hamelin + Wretch is 20 stones of models. If you plant yourself near Dead Rider + Archie, you're going to be taking a similar level of damage.

It isn't like the wretch can do that damage itself. It enables the keyword, and personally I love keyword synergies.

Plus if you removed the ability, would the model ever be taken? Although I wonder if they ever experimented with stat 4, similar to the Chihuahua.

[Thatguy]

2 hours ago, Davos said:

Which ones in-particular?  Cause theres a lot of minions out there that super trounce them I feel

 

Engineers are insane. They filter your hand, give out shielded and focus, and have a good ranged attach for thier cost.

Scouts and Freikropsman are very solid too.

All thier minions are also pretty survivable with armor and heal access in keyword. They synergize really well with the upgrades as well.  Like the scout using Stat 7, FF and concealment ignoring Rocket launcher attacks or Assault Shield and Engineer shielding on models that already have armor.

The biggest downside imo is lack of mobility, but they're still ahead of a lot of crews with Load Up pushes and rocket boots access.

They won't compete with scheme runners like Necro Punks or piglets but they're solid offensively and defensively with a fair bit of utility thrown in. 

[Azahul]

I dunno how I feel about Wretch nerfs to be honest. If Hamelin has spent his entire activation on lures and one black staff swing and spent stones and cards then that model should just die. You've spent your Master's activation setting up so that a 5 point model can do a lot of damage, that isn't free, and once he's set a target's defence and willpower to 0 it's not like there's aren't any number of other models that are likely to kill it in a turn (honestly, my experience when I do that is that a few rat attacks and a swipe from a Rat King from Unclean Influence should basically do the job). I have had so many games where the Wretch did nothing because I kept killing the blighted/injured models before she could get a shot in. And it isn't like Hamelin is tearing up the game competitively, I would feel like seeing nerfs to him instead of Leveticus or Daw a little surprising even if I personally think he's great.

 

On the other hand the Wretch is undoubtedly the best 5 stone model in the game, and an auto include in Hamelin's crew. Because she has far more limited functionality OOK, that isn't necessarily a bad thing like how Ashes and Dust in GG0 showed up in every list, you could just consider her as a totem-esque portion of Hamelin's own power budget like Hungering Darkness is a big part of Lynch's, with the difference being that she actually costs stones. But all the same I wouldn't think her being nerfed would be a terrible thing for the crew. I think on balance that it would be unwarranted, but I could see it.

 

On the buff side, and setting aside Winged Plagues and the Desperate Mercenaries, I've always found the Ronin being Stat 5 to be a weird choice. For six stones and a relatively average damage track, Stat 6 wouldn't seem unreasonable. It's been mentioned that ditching a card for the Desperate Mercenary's Rapid Fire is just never worth it, but in a card poor crew like the Viks ditching one for the Ronin's Flurry is also quite hard to justify. Nearly every model in the Keyword has a discard a card mechanic, and the only draw is a trigger on Vanessa's attack or the Ronin's own bonus, which are fairly tough actions to rely on. The whole Keyword could use some synergies and boosts I think, but Stat 6 on their main fighting Minions in a keyword where most of the melee fighters are Stat 7 feels appropriate, particularly if they're going to continue lack in any other form of support.

[Jesy Blue]

I don't understand the Obident Wretch nerf talk.

• There are 3 models in the game with Bleeding disease, 1 Master, 1 Henchman, 1 Enforcer, and that is somehow too powerful?
• It's an auto take in keyword where 3 of the 7 other Plague models to pick from are summonable and 1 is on the shortlist of worst models in the game, and that is somehow too powerful?
• It almost never is seen out of keyword, and that is somehow too powerful?

So is Nix next on the chopping block?

[Azahul]

Yeah, I think when it comes to evaluating a model like the Wretch a few normal assumptions get warped by how much it relies on the Keyword. I mean, do I think it's undoubtedly the best 5 stone model in the game? Yes. Does it get taken all the time out of keyword? No, in fact it's an extremely niche pick (Analyse Weakness if you need armour piercing and aren't bringing Mad Dog/don't think Mad Dog would be enough?). That means it's avoiding the normal issue of models too strong for their cost, that they show up everywhere. And in turn, that means that the model has to be viewed only in the context of the Keyword as a whole. If the Keyword is overperforming, the model might be a problem. My understanding is that Plague isn't generally considered top tier, which means that a very strong model that only works in the Keyword isn't actually a problem for the game. Viewing a model so keyword reliant in isolation is actually problematic, as part of the design of the keyword could intentionally be that they get access to this specific option for a low price to make up for problems elsewhere.

[touchdown]

Lazarus and Talos could both use some love. Not only because people aren't finding value in them but they're such cool models never to have on the table.

7 hours ago, Azahul said:

On the buff side, and setting aside Winged Plagues and the Desperate Mercenaries, I've always found the Ronin being Stat 5 to be a weird choice. For six stones and a relatively average damage track, Stat 6 wouldn't seem unreasonable. It's been mentioned that ditching a card for the Desperate Mercenary's Rapid Fire is just never worth it, but in a card poor crew like the Viks ditching one for the Ronin's Flurry is also quite hard to justify. Nearly every model in the Keyword has a discard a card mechanic, and the only draw is a trigger on Vanessa's attack or the Ronin's own bonus, which are fairly tough actions to rely on. The whole Keyword could use some synergies and boosts I think, but Stat 6 on their main fighting Minions in a keyword where most of the melee fighters are Stat 7 feels appropriate, particularly if they're going to continue lack in any other form of support.

Stat 6 on a model that get 5" of free movement a turn and has flurry would be busted. I like the Ronin right where they are. The ideal 2 role minion, can either scheme or fight as you need.

[Azahul]

34 minutes ago, touchdown said:

Stat 6 on a model that get 5" of free movement a turn and has flurry would be busted. I like the Ronin right where they are. The ideal 2 role minion, can either scheme or fight as you need.

Would it? Monster Hunters aren't exactly considered amazing but they have a discard a card for another attack, a better damage track, on a gun, and near as much free movement (while also having Creep Along and Bravado, so they probably move more), and they get a conditional Stat 6 attack on top of those other advantages. I wouldn't mind if there were also a condition on the Ronin (Pursue maybe?), but given the other advantages of the Monster Hunter offensively and the fact that Mercenary as a keyword has very little going for it outside of speed and combat and a lot of pressure on card discard making the Ronin's Flurry more appealing doesn't feel like it would break anything.

[Zebo]

Ronins are amazing scheme runners that cannot be slowed by engaging them. They ignore armor and can do a quite fair amount of damage for their cost. They're not the Mernecaries's main fightin minions, but their main scheme runners. 

 

Lazarus only needs to loose his Demise and gain Rapid Fire as it was in the beta before people started complaining about a 9ss model whose only utility was to shoot shockwaves. It seems that 9ss for a model that puts 3 shockwaves was too much. It could be engaged, as it can be now, but knowing how to face a model is harder than simply complain and ask for nerfs. 

[Jesy Blue]

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

Lazarus only needs to loose his Demise and gain Rapid Fire as it was in the beta before people started complaining about a 9ss model whose only utility was to shoot shockwaves. It seems that 9ss for a model that puts 3 shockwaves was too much. It could be engaged, as it can be now, but knowing how to face a model is harder than simply complain and ask for nerfs. 

I assume you mean Grit.... not Demise.

Also seems odd that Merris also puts down 3 shockwaves and no one seems to mind.

[Zebo]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I assume you mean Grit.... not Demise.

Also seems odd that Merris also puts down 3 shockwaves and no one seems to mind.

Yes, sorry. The Grit ability. 

I suppose some people had some bad experience facing Lazarus and instead trying to neutralize him, they complained about OPity and whatever. 

Sad, because Freikorps could have 3 really interesting "big" Models to choose, and now Hannah and Arik are almost autoinclude in every list while Lazarus is never hired ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Zebo]

16 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Engineers are insane. They filter your hand, give out shielded and focus, and have a good ranged attach for thier cost.

They can be very good, but also can kill your hand in late turn, when you keep those few hig cards/severes in hand and realizes that you must get rid of one just to try to use their bonus (you know, those turns in which you need to make your beaters/schemer go first and your cards starts flying from your hand trying to keep them alive/make them do their thing, then you have like a couple of severes and one 9-10 kept in hand just in case and you must discard one of them for the Engineer... Not very funny. Specially when you don't flip the 5 and you must decide if burning another high card or just let it go. 

Their attack is not bad, but neither impressive. It's ok for their cost. 

I keep asking me what sense has the Sabotage ability in them. Any kind of sinergy there, or just wasted ink?

17 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree. Big Jake is already strong, and this would make him a sure two points in a lot of games

Why do you think is Strong? I see him and not saying he's weak, but really can't figure a good use for him, out of waiting for him to die soon so he can be summoned again in the fifth turn. 

[Thatguy]

I've seen them pick up too many Red Jokers for me to underestimate their card draw. 

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Their attack is not bad, but neither impressive

They and Freikropsman have pretty easy access to a 3/4/6 damage spread gun. That's pretty damn good for a 5-6ss minion. It might not stand out in the faction that has Rusty Alice and Mad Dog, but it's something most crews don't have access to. 

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

 

I keep asking me what sense has the Sabotage ability in them. Any kind of sinergy there, or just wasted ink?

19 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think it's wasted ink. But it is pretty niche. They do have an armor ignoring melee trigger and the potential to give themselves the suit they need for it. 

[Davos]

47 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

They and Freikropsman have pretty easy access to a 3/4/6 damage spread gun.

I think the largest overarching problem with the Freikrop as a whole is its incredibly card intensive: between VS/trunks attaching upgrades (TN needing 5 & 6 respectively), TN needing 7 (Grenade Belt), 4 (Land Mines) 7 (Leapy boots) 5 (Rocket Launcher-Blow it to Hell), Hannah's Bous action (especially if she's copying another bonus action), Librarian's heal (TN needing 6 + the actual heal flip, as healing for 1 feels really bad), Engineer need to DISCARD a card AND flip a 5 for Strengthen armor, Reference the Field Guide on Freikorpsmann, the bonus actions on steam trunk, and Shouting Orders for Focus.  

You're insanely strained on cards.  So sure.  you can get a 3/4/6 damage track, but your hand's empty and you're trustying a topdeck to YOLO your way to victory.

OR, in the (worse) situation, you have 19 things you need to do, but only 7 cards in hand, of which only 3?4?5? (if you're insanely lucky) actually hit the TN you NEED, without you spending a severe to heal a model for 1.

Its just insanely expensive to do all the "things" that make the Freikorp unique.  Which I think would stand as a perfect chance to FINALLY give them an actual Keyword unifying ability (only Keyword in the game without one); something with card draw based on the "specialize" Freikorp unique thing they're doing

....18 months? into 3E and i'm TOTALLY not still salty they don't have a Keyword ability...

And no.  You cannot include Armor as a "keyword ability"

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, Davos said:

 

Its just insanely expensive to do all the "things" that make the Freikorp unique.  Which I think would stand as a perfect chance to FINALLY give them an actual Keyword unifying ability (only Keyword in the game without one); something with card draw based on the "specialize" Freikorp unique thing they're doing

 

What is the keyword ability for Plague? 

Or Nightmare? (I'd guess terrifying, but thats about as universal as armour, and not on all the models)

Retainer? Ancestors all have demise Reliquary, all 5(?) of them 

Tri Chi get High tolerance, which is unique, but it really just means that the other stuff they do doesn't hurt themselves. 

December seem to have a mix of eat your fill, demise Frozen heart or sacrifice to December, but none of them are on a majority of models I don't think.

Wildfire all have something that play around with pyres or burning, but nothing specific across most of the keyword

Performer gets a lot of don't mind me but that's certainly not unique to them 

It gets a bit hard on things like Sooey/Pig, where Pig has stampede, but there isn't really anything for sooey

You could probably come up with a criteria that would fit all the other keywords, but not Friekorps, but its pretty artifical at that point. 

 

Sorry -I just don't like things which I think are factually wrong. 

[Thatguy]

24 minutes ago, Davos said:

You cannot include Armor as a "keyword ability

Dang that was going to be my suggestion.  

I think generally most crews are a lot more card hungry in 3rd Ed. I think Somer is the only Master were I routinely end a turn with 2-3 cards in hand. Mostly because Bayou Two Card means if you flip a 2 it's probably better to cheat from the top then throw a 5. 

Other than Hannah's Arcane reservoir there aren't any good ways to go up cards. Engineers fix but don't draw. One of the reasons that I think Engineers are good is that they can add the suit without going down cards. With Freikropsman it's more of a desperation/surprise ability. Like you really need that extra couple points of damage or most of the crew is dead, freeing up cards.

If I were to give them a crew ability now it would be tied to them doing something when discarding an upgrade. At the moment other than Dracken Troopers and maybe librarians nothing in the crew really needs improvement. Giving them anything cool now would mean ditching something else or just making them monsterous

[Thatguy]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

Nightmare?  

I tend to think of Lucid Dream as thier keyword ability. It's on all the minions are least. Sort like how almost all of Tri-Chi has trusty flask. 

I think reference the field guide could have been the Friekorps one, but that would take a big rebalance.