Maniacal_cackle Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 It is a commonly held position that the various Riders are overtuned (except maybe Hooded). They all have amazing 5-token abilities, and those abilities typically aren't even the best thing on the card. They're all nuts (or at least, played to a high degree). A common solution is to tone them down. But that just feels wrong for the horsemen of the apocalypse. So I wonder - should M3E have tuned them UP? What if Riders were exactly the same, but cost 15-16 and were masters? Potentially other abilities could be tuned, but +4-5 cost for built in fast + attuned is a decent rate. It would make them feel appropriately powerful, but have a bit more mechanical balance. You also could have horsemen crews, filled with the team of four horsemen with 2-5 stones to spare. What do you think? Should the Riders get a promotion next edition? It would also have been an interesting precedent to have some versatile masters with no crews of their own. EDIT: note I don't think Riders should be changed at this point, as I think they're fine-ish. Just on the strong side. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfemann Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 It's an interesting idea - and the idea of fielding the Four Horsemen as their own crew, obviously, has some appeal to it. But do you want to give the Horsemen another action every activation and the ability to throw down Stones? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted January 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 Just now, Wolfemann said: It's an interesting idea - and the idea of fielding the Four Horsemen as their own crew, obviously, has some appeal to it. But do you want to give the Horsemen another action every activation and the ability to throw down Stones? If the Mechanical Rider can have it for two stones, I want it for five darn it! Haha, but I take your point. But I think it would possibly be fine if they were costed the same as a master (I mean at 16 stones I'd be choosing between Kirai and Dead Rider... Pretty sure Kirai would be superior for many crews). At that point you would possibly want to change the revel abilities to regular actions with a once per turn limit, so that could offset the three actions a bit. But it'd be nice for the horsemen to feel as epic as masters, without coming with a whole crew. The thing I'd be most worried about would be a 2-3 horsemen group dominating certain parts of the meta, and it would become really obvious that some factions didn't have access to the crew... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muraki Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 Naaah. There's a lot of issues with riders as masters which include - scarcity - only 4 factions have riders so that's bringing the 8 master per faction symmetry out of wack. - similarity - it would adds a very specific master type to 1/2 the factions so other factions would either have to get a horse or a non-horse horselike master to keep up, and I'd far prefer more interesting masters like some of the explorer ones than rider-esque ones to fill out a roster. - balance - as a core of riders could show up in 4 factions there could be unforseen issues / combinations - cost - at 15 you would be able to field 3 riders + the one that's your master which doesn't leave you much to play with / get out, so they'd prolly have to stay near 11-12 to allow you to field more than 5 models (or only hire 2 riders - keyword depth + versatility - wyrd is doing a good job of filling out master keywords so you have a variety of options, riders are more a tech piece across factions for a similar role... So of one or all became masters we'd have to see 3-5 more 'horseman' models to make them a viable option outside of fun games. They have better luck going the xroads route and becoming henchmen so you could elevate one to master (and then wyrd doesn't have to worry about keyword depth / etc) but that only fixes 1/2 the issues. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said: It is a commonly held position that the various Riders are overtuned (except maybe Hooded). They all have amazing 5-token abilities, and those abilities typically aren't even the best thing on the card. They're all nuts (or at least, played to a high degree). A common solution is to tone them down. But that just feels wrong for the horsemen of the apocalypse. So I wonder - should M3E have tuned them UP? What if Riders were exactly the same, but cost 15-16 and were masters? Potentially other abilities could be tuned, but +4-5 cost for built in fast + attuned is a decent rate. It would make them feel appropriately powerful, but have a bit more mechanical balance. You also could have horsemen crews, filled with the team of four horsemen with 2-5 stones to spare. What do you think? Should the Riders get a promotion next edition? It would also have been an interesting precedent to have some versatile masters with no crews of their own. EDIT: note I don't think Riders should be changed at this point, as I think they're fine-ish. Just on the strong side. M3 did do something close to what you are asking about, in that the Crossroad 7 are all capable of being a leader, so 7 of the factions have access to a leader, whose only keyword hiring pool is out of faction henchmen. Alternatively you're just trying to haze the UK meta by removing the riders from them. (Since they are famously Single master) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted January 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, Adran said: M3 did do something close to what you are asking about, in that the Crossroad 7 are all capable of being a leader, so 7 of the factions have access to a leader, whose only keyword hiring pool is out of faction henchmen. Alternatively you're just trying to haze the UK meta by removing the riders from them. (Since they are famously Single master) Haha, it would ruin single masters a bit, it is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 So we would have 8 riders of the Balancepocalypse! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belorey Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 I wish they made 4 Riders duals changing few things to be playable on both factions: Dead Rider - Reser & Outcast Hooded Rider - Never & Bayou Mechanical Rider - Arcanist & 10T Pale Rider - Guild & Explorer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordon Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 The rider list was my favourite list to run back in M2E and I'm eagerly waiting for that keyword to get used again in M3E. I was hoping to see the new explorers use it but alas I'm still having to wait... I've since become a fan of the crossroad 7 ran crew. It makes me wonder if the same sort of thing could be done with the horsemen. Both the crossroad and Horsemen list back in M2e were more of a niche list rather than something competitive but good players could make them work. Perhaps giving them an upgrade since they have a specific keyword Keyword: Horsemen Cost: 4ss - A model with this upgrade is considered a leader when taken within it's declared faction. - This model may only hire models with this upgrade - Non leader models with this upgrade gain 1 general AP and can use soul stones The idea is that you could only run the 4 horsemen. One becomes the leader based on your declared faction. Each rider gains 1 general AP and can use soul stones. At 4ss per upgrade, it brings you to 15ss per model for a 45ss total list (5 cache). These upgrades cannot be taken unless you're running the 4 horsemen list. I have no idea if it'd actually be good but I'd sure as hell play it 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPieChee Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 I too was hoping for an explorer with the horseman keyword (or an ability allowing for hiring as if versatile). All horsemen henchmen seems like the best solution. Making them fun, but not really competitive would be the best solution, which I think making them henchmen does... I'm sure someone could come up with some interesting minions to support them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPieChee Posted January 6, 2021 Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 52 minutes ago, MrPieChee said: I'm sure someone could come up with some interesting minions to support them... How about: "Willing sacrifices" as martyrs for the Word/Wrath of God (from the 5th seal). They could take on a more Viking style so as to gain their own identity. Ruleswise, I'm thinking some form of demise eternal, give a date token to a nearby rider for removing an enemy scheme marker, and pulse focus when killed... "Bards" as the evangelical trumpeters (from the 7th seal). Hand out loads of slow and distracted? The natural disasters from the 6th seal don't lend themselves directly to something straight forward. You could go down an elemental route? (Earth/earthquake, fire/wild fires, water/tsunami , air/tornadoes) could be a shape shifter switching into each element via a replace mechanic... Perhaps as a defensive trigger. No idea which faction these would go in, or how you would tie them to the horseman keyword mechanically - they could be mounted? But another keyword of 50mm bases isn't needed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooshawn Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 I feel like they have a chance to take third edition from amazing to perfect with some upgrades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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