Neurotoxins and Expert Thief

[Mycellanious]

Neurotoxins: Enemy models with the Poison Condition within Aura-3 cannot use Soulstones or declare triggers

Expert Thief: Target a model that can use Soulstones

 

If a model that normally could use soulstones is currently affected by Neurotoxins, is it still a valid target for Actions or Abilities that require the target to be able to use Soulstones?

[santaclaws01]

I would say no, neurotoxins removed their ability to remove soulstones.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I would say the intent of Expert Thief is it basically means "target a master, henchman, or model with attuned."

And if you want a technical argument for RAW, then it doesn't say "a model that can use soulstones right now." It says a model that can use soulstones, and a model under neurotoxins can use soulstones (it just can't use them right now).

So I would say you can still steal the stones.

[touchdown]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It says a model that can use soulstones, and a model under neurotoxins can use soulstones (it just can't use them right now).

I'm not sure how this should be ruled, but in all other cases costs are based on the condition right now. Fire Golem can't Draw off Flame on a model that used to have burning or will have it in the future

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, touchdown said:

I'm not sure how this should be ruled, but in all other cases costs are based on the condition right now. Fire Golem can't Draw off Flame on a model that used to have burning or will have it in the future

Yeah I realise it is a silly technical argument, but I think it is the meaning. And the 'with' burning isn't really the same, since that is clearly a present tense. The 'can' use soulstones is a bit of a funky one.

There are unfortunately only three models I can find that have a restriction "target a model that", and so there isn't much else stuff for guidance.

Regardless, ROI, I think it is probably masters, henchmen, and attuned models.

[santaclaws01]

21 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah I realise it is a silly technical argument, but I think it is the meaning. And the 'with' burning isn't really the same, since that is clearly a present tense. The 'can' use soulstones is a bit of a funky one.

There are unfortunately only three models I can find that have a restriction "target a model that", and so there isn't much else stuff for guidance.

Regardless, ROI, I think it is probably masters, henchmen, and attuned models.

I think that makes a lot of assumptions about designer intent and implied words, on top of being a weird argument in general. Do you think a model with Soulstone Cache that's within 6" of Von Schtook could still be targeted by Expert Thief as well? Or that a model with Soulstone Cache can't even be targeted by Expert Thief since they can only use soulstones thanks to the upgrade and it's possible to remove said upgrade, so they're always only temporarily a soulstone user.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

I think that makes a lot of assumptions about designer intent and implied words, on top of being a weird argument in general. Do you think a model with Soulstone Cache that's within 6" of Von Schtook could still be targeted by Expert Thief as well? Or that a model with Soulstone Cache can't even be targeted by Expert Thief since they can only use soulstones thanks to the upgrade and it's possible to remove said upgrade, so they're always only temporarily a soulstone user.

Yeah, fair enough, there's a lot of merit to just doing it RAW.

[Maladroit]

On 1/4/2021 at 4:09 AM, santaclaws01 said:

I would say no, neurotoxins removed their ability to remove soulstones.

It's an interesting question - the fact that the word "cannot" is the opposite of "can" in this case would seem to support your argument.

I guess the problem is that "can" might mean "is capable of" or could also mean "is permitted to". The 14 year old next door can drive a car, but he cannot legally drive a car on the roads.

What about a situation where the crew has no soulstones left - in this instance the model cannot use a soulstone (there are not any to use)? Not relevant for expert thief but is relevant for Control Collar on Sanctioned Spellcasters. Personally I don't think having no SS means control collar no longer functions, but the argument is that Von Schtook also turns off this ability?

[santaclaws01]

On 1/6/2021 at 12:27 AM, Maladroit said:

What about a situation where the crew has no soulstones left - in this instance the model cannot use a soulstone (there are not any to use)? Not relevant for expert thief but is relevant for Control Collar on Sanctioned Spellcasters. Personally I don't think having no SS means control collar no longer functions, but the argument is that Von Schtook also turns off this ability?

Whether an argument can be made that if a crew has no soulstones left a model can't use soulstones(which is a silly one) doesn't have any impact on the argument that a model in an aura telling you that it can't use soulstones, can't be targeted by effects that require the target to be able to use soulstones. While in that aura, it can't use soultones. There's no grey area there, it just can't.

 

The Von Schtook thing was only for the specific example of an enforcer or minion with Soulstone Cache, as they get the Attuned ability, which would allow them to use soulstones where they would normally not be able to. Von Schtook's Academic Superiority ability makes them ignore it while he's within range.

[solkan]

17 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Whether an argument can be made that if a crew has no soulstones left a model can't use soulstones(which is a silly one) doesn't have any impact on the argument that a model in an aura telling you that it can't use soulstones, can't be targeted by effects that require the target to be able to use soulstones. While in that aura, it can't use soultones. There's no grey area there, it just can't.

You've got two situations where the model with the ability to use soul stones cannot use soul stones, and you appear to be claiming arbitrarily that one counts and the other doesn't, in a game where if you don't have a card in your hand you can't pay a "discard a card" cost.

In both cases, the model still has the ability which states that it can use soul stones.  And in both cases, some external factor is preventing the use of use of that ability.

 

[santaclaws01]

12 minutes ago, solkan said:

You've got two situations where the model with the ability to use soul stones cannot use soul stones

No, there's one situation where a model can't use soulstones, and a situation where a model can use soulstones but doesn't have any to use. There's no comparison to costs to use an ability to be made here, and if Expert Thief actually cared about the crew having soulstones or not there would be no reason to include an "If it does so" clause.