Wishlist of changes for Guild

[Filox]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Compare Witchling Thrall to Student of Viscera  

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[le_wahou]

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Compare Witchling Thrall to Student of Viscera  

I do not see what you mean. You only need to remove 2 bonus action and 1 ability to have similar models ^^

[trikk]

And 1 HP  

[admiralvorkraft]

 

I think that's more of a matter of the Students being over-tuned than the Thrall being bad. Throw anything forward 15" for one attack and a halfway decent player will melt it. That's not the Thrall's fault. It reads as a roadblock/countercharge piece to me. Hold it back a bit turn one as you get burning on the opponent and limit their ranged options, get it in the mix turn 2/3 with a stack of focus and let it clear out the center.

It's got a better Ml than the student thanks to Crit Strike and You're Coming With Me. And yeah, it's more fragile, but again that's Schtook's crew being over tuned generally. 

[Dark Reaper]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Compare Witchling Thrall to Student of Viscera  

No, I prefer not to. 😛

[Filox]

31 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

 

I think that's more of a matter of the Students being over-tuned than the Thrall being bad. Throw anything forward 15" for one attack and a halfway decent player will melt it. That's not the Thrall's fault. It reads as a roadblock/countercharge piece to me. Hold it back a bit turn one as you get burning on the opponent and limit their ranged options, get it in the mix turn 2/3 with a stack of focus and let it clear out the center.

It's got a better Ml than the student thanks to Crit Strike and You're Coming With Me. And yeah, it's more fragile, but again that's Schtook's crew being over tuned generally. 

It's not just Viscera being overtuned. Kentaouri, Kabuki Warrior, Goryo, Wokoku Raider, Sabertooth. All of those models are performing better in simple job. Strong melee minion. And not all of them are based on suecideing themself on 1 enemy model just two gain decent value in trade model for model (which Thrall usually don't get). There is not enough support them, and they itself don't bring much to the table. Every other of those models has something to protect himself from harm by being harder to hit, having reduction or just overpowering mobility. Thrall can either charge or do nothing, and only thing keeping him standing in this card lacking keyword is HtW, which most of the time is given for free in other keywords.

[admiralvorkraft]

29 minutes ago, Filox said:

It's not just Viscera being overtuned. Kentaouri, Kabuki Warrior, Goryo, Wokoku Raider, Sabertooth. All of those models are performing better in simple job. Strong melee minion. And not all of them are based on suecideing themself on 1 enemy model just two gain decent value in trade model for model (which Thrall usually don't get). There is not enough support them, and they itself don't bring much to the table. Every other of those models has something to protect himself from harm by being harder to hit, having reduction or just overpowering mobility. Thrall can either charge or do nothing, and only thing keeping him standing in this card lacking keyword is HtW, which most of the time is given for free in other keywords.

Kabuki Warrior is strictly worse in my experience. I just blow it off the table before it gets relevant. Sabertooth is better with SSC but otherwise it's pretty similar on paper. Leap is great of course, but clearly that's not the sort of trick Guild is allowed to have.

Goryo again has a worse attack though Vengeance and Incorporeal are a great combo. Kentauroi has a very different role within the keyword thanks to Ride With Me. The Raider seems good on paper but I've never seen it played.

Again, I think you're using the Thrall wrong if you're looking at it as primarily an aggressive piece. Your in-keyword alpha striker is Sonnia, the Thrall is there to bust her out of combat and mix it up in the mid-game before dying and splashing burning that lets you summon a new one...

[Filox]

13 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Kabuki Warrior is strictly worse in my experience. I just blow it off the table before it gets relevant. Sabertooth is better with SSC but otherwise it's pretty similar on paper. Leap is great of course, but clearly that's not the sort of trick Guild is allowed to have.

Goryo again has a worse attack though Vengeance and Incorporeal are a great combo. Kentauroi has a very different role within the keyword thanks to Ride With Me. The Raider seems good on paper but I've never seen it played.

Again, I think you're using the Thrall wrong if you're looking at it as primarily an aggressive piece. Your in-keyword alpha striker is Sonnia, the Thrall is there to bust her out of combat and mix it up in the mid-game before dying and splashing burning that lets you summon a new one...

Guild can only play control type of game and yes, he is semi-aggressive piece. But he literally cannot be anything else, Kabuki Warriors bring you so much utility to the table with Lures, Distraction and Combat Finesse making it great OOK tech piece against Viks and other melee masters who rely solely on close combat. And as you see, all those models that I listed are not fun to attack in close combat. Yet, Thrall not only being easier to actually attack him, he's Demise is not supplement for defensive tech. You are coming with me is okay trigger but not to disengage Sonnia 'cause you are just gonna end up with big bomb next to your squishy master and it's fuze is really short. If you are shutting down Kabuki before they become relevant, imagine model for 1/6 of your Crew becoming relevant after getting killed in semi-spectacular fashion. 

[admiralvorkraft]

So I do agree that they're is a bit of an issue, and that is cross-keyword hiring. 

The Kabuki Warrior is perfectly balanced in keyword. Cerberus is completely balanced in keyword (SSC cache is the issue there). Thrall is just fine in keyword,  balance around the strengths and weaknesses of the keyword. But it's not good compared to Phiona. Who the keyword shouldn't have free access to because then it's not a keyword with unique strengths and weaknesses anymore... but that's a design issue with the game at large. 

You're Coming With Me places the Thrall in contact with the target so I don't see how that specific is a problem. Plus the Df Trigger should be enough to mitigate the consequences of blowing up early. 

[Filox]

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

So I do agree that they're is a bit of an issue, and that is cross-keyword hiring. 

The Kabuki Warrior is perfectly balanced in keyword. Cerberus is completely balanced in keyword (SSC cache is the issue there). Thrall is just fine in keyword,  balance around the strengths and weaknesses of the keyword. But it's not good compared to Phiona. Who the keyword shouldn't have free access to because then it's not a keyword with unique strengths and weaknesses anymore... but that's a design issue with the game at large. 

You're Coming With Me places the Thrall in contact with the target so I don't see how that specific is a problem. Plus the Df Trigger should be enough to mitigate the consequences of blowing up early. 

The issue is not with cross hiring, but the fact that all of the models listed above can do something else beside running straight at the enemy making single attack and dieing in not so spectacular fashion, they have an option like luring, scheming, tanking or just simply moving models around, Thrall on the other hand has none of those options. 

[belorey]

About Sonnia keyword. What can we do with Samael? I like it but is like has no space on Sonnia's list. Also i think is the only keyword (with Perdita) Who has no other hechman.

And we have Sanctioned Spellcaster and Thalarian Queller that are useless.

[4thstringer]

19 minutes ago, belorey said:

About Sonnia keyword. What can we do with Samael? I like it but is like has no space on Sonnia's list. Also i think is the only keyword (with Perdita) Who has no other hechman.

And we have Sanctioned Spellcaster and Thalarian Queller that are useless.

I don't hate the sanctioned spellcasters.  In fact I think I like them more than I do the thrall or stalker.

[trikk]

I rate Witch Hunter Minions:

Spelleater > Handler > Spellcaster > Thrall > pile of garbage >>>>>>>> Thalarian Queller

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I rate Witch Hunter Minions:

Spelleater > Handler > Spellcaster > Thrall > pile of garbage >>>>>>>> Thalarian Queller

it can be told abt most of keywords))

i think best minions have shen, because pile of garbage is far away))

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, Filox said:

The issue is not with cross hiring, but the fact that all of the models listed above can do something else beside running straight at the enemy making single attack and dieing in not so spectacular fashion, they have an option like luring, scheming, tanking or just simply moving models around, Thrall on the other hand has none of those options. 

Or you hold it back and control board position? 

I guess I'd tweak it in two ways. The heal should be a free action and No Love For Witchlings should say "friendly fire or LOS" because the image of Sam punching a bullet clean through a Thrall to get a kill is just too good. 

2 hours ago, belorey said:

About Sonnia keyword. What can we do with Samael? 

Build in either trigger on the revolver? I think Ricochet.

He's a faster, more fragile Alyce. But the delay on damage from burning means he should have a marginal other edge. 

The Quellers - build in blaze on Arcane Staff and replace Barrier to the Other World with "Flame Barrier - while this model hasn't activated this turn enemy models treat the area around them as hazardous Damage +1 and Burning +1"

Sanctioned Spellcasters seem fine. Maybe make Negation Aura Ca 5? But probably not. 

Give the Handler a more reliable heal and/or a way to turn burning into soulstones.

The keyword has schemers (Hopkins, spellcasters, Quellers), ranged pressure, ml presence, and a degree of durability (shielded, counterspell). They seem fine except that you can min-max by just hiring the best models cross keyword so why bother with average models or models that accomplish things in less-than-perfect ways?

[le_wahou]

5 hours ago, trikk said:

I rate Witch Hunter Minions:

Spelleater > Handler > Spellcaster > Thrall > pile of garbage >>>>>>>> Thalarian Queller

The stalker is the pile of garbage ?

[4thstringer]

55 minutes ago, le_wahou said:

The stalker is the pile of garbage ?

The stalker got significantly worse than last edition, but I swear I didn't buy stalkers last edition, so I don't know what the idea is.  

[admiralvorkraft]

6 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

The stalker got significantly worse than last edition, but I swear I didn't buy stalkers last edition, so I don't know what the idea is.  

Unimpeded is nice, as is walk 5 and not needing the suit for the condition removal. They do less damage without the burning built in, but with the change to burning it doesn't change things that much...

[4thstringer]

3 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Unimpeded is nice, as is walk 5 and not needing the suit for the condition removal. They do less damage without the burning built in, but with the change to burning it doesn't change things that much...

The change to burning is also part of what made them worse.  

[admiralvorkraft]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

The change to burning is also part of what made them worse.  

Yeah, it's a big contributor to the issues with the crew. I think in development a lot of testers had trouble figuring out ways to interact with the new burning mechanic so if ended up just sort of being there.

[ShinChan]

5 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Yeah, it's a big contributor to the issues with the crew. I think in development a lot of testers had trouble figuring out ways to interact with the new burning mechanic so if ended up just sort of being there.

Having the printed trigger in the revolver would bump them enough, allowing them to take potshots while walking for 1 damage + the necessary burning.

Right now, unless you need the condition removal, they're bad.

[Filox]

On 12/29/2020 at 1:59 PM, Filox said:

Family: 

Change Bravado to either push or give Shielded +2 (Shielded +1 is too weak in my honest opinion for an action which you can only make once per turn).

Perdita Ortega:

Only model which doesn't have Family Values trigger on her main action although being a Master. This trigger is on Analyze Weakness action though which makes it sometimes useless when your opponent does not generate huge amount of Shielded or has Armor. So first change would be giving Perdita Family Values trigger on her Custom Peacebringer attack action (maybe should even be built in my opinion, it can only be used once per Activation anyway).

Francisco Ortega

Due to buff in Bravado him having Gtit (Hardened) and option to Armor via LLC upgrade he could be a little way to tough to take down. First would be removing Grit to reduce his damage reduction by 1. I personally would like him to have Combat Finesse instead of normal Finesse as well changing his Df trigger to something like this Don't Mind Me, Focus on the Battle: (I'm terrible at naming stuff like this...) Friendly Family model within LoS/6"  can take Concentrate action. This trigger could definitely be built in and replace Parry. Some people say that only removing Grit and giving built in on Balanced Sword attack action would also be sufficient.

Pala Loco

Folks says that giving him Ruthless and Thrash on his Attack Actions would be enough, thou in my honest opinion he don't need Thrash trigger, he has Blow It to Hell bonus action to do it instead.

Santiago Ortega 

Would also use Ruthless as Df stat increase to 6. His damage track is one of the worst in entire keyword and he does not bring much to the table, thou giving weak damage track value of 3 would really help this model see more play.

Nino

For being only model with built Family Values and mediocre damage even for his cost (as lacking Expert Shot) he dies way to quickly. He has nothing to defend himself and there is almost no way to defend him in keyword from his adversaries. Giving him Stealth would fix most of the problems of this model.

Monster Hunters are okay in my opinion.

Pistolero de Latigo:

As for being one of the worst models in entire game in many people opinion they would definitely use a little bit of love. I saw that some of you said giving them Hard to Kill instead of Fistful of Script and increasing they Wd stat to 5. I personally like this and would definitely help them to start being seen on more competitive tables.

Actually I would like to add something to this. I think Family Values could actually be built in trigger on most actions. Pistelero could get By Your Side and Shielded +2 could be with Push instead of just instead.

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, Filox said:

Actually I would like to add something to this. I think Family Values could actually be built in trigger on most actions. Pistelero could get By Your Side and Shielded +2 could be with Push instead of just instead.

That feels like a lot. Build in Family Values and add "when this model expends focus they ignore the terrifying ability" to Bravado would be plenty. 

[Filox]

1 minute ago, admiralvorkraft said:

That feels like a lot. Build in Family Values and add "when this model expends focus they ignore the terrifying ability" to Bravado would be plenty. 

Oh definitely not, and mass ignore of terrifying is bad.

[admiralvorkraft]

2 minutes ago, Filox said:

Oh definitely not, and mass ignore of terrifying is bad.

Fair, make it so they apply a positive twist to the terrifying duel as well (can't come up with the wording right now). But literally the only issue I have with the crew is card economy and if I'm getting free draws on every attack that's no longer a problem.