Rasputina - problems and possible fixes

[ooshawn]

Also Giving 3/4 of a crew slow once..... as I said earlier, depending on the strats and schemes, that's essentially the game being over.

[ooshawn]

I always take at least 5-6 stones when I play and 100% of the time, without fail I stone for cards turn 1 and 2

[Jordon]

As I have said previously, my issue is not with power. If Slow and Onslaught are problems with Ice mirror, then get rid them and give her something else. I don't care as long as its unique, thematic and above all interesting. 

My problem is that I feel punished for using her core mechanic, when I should feel rewarded. I want to use ice mirrors and have it do cool and interesting things outside of a 2/3/4 and potentially a blast. It gets old so fast....

Triggers are what make Raspy's actions interesting and currently I feel discouraged from using them in conjunction with her core mechanic.

[ooshawn]

Sounds to me like you want a more complex crew and your just bored of what rasputina is capable of to be honest

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, ooshawn said:

Me personally I think slow is probably the strongest condition. I don't think I would ever choose another trigger unless I had a clear pathway to victory by killing a model. Your mostly just wanting to slow them to a halt and make it impossible to interact and move in the same turn. or move and attack in the same turn

I agree. I don't play Rasputina so my opinion might not be worth much, but dropping pianos with Zipp is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, imo. Getting to do that at bigger ranges and have a  discard/slow tacked on is amazing. If you drop a marker outside of 1 and in the way of objectives, many models will have to spend a whole turn dealing with it. 1ap to move close and 1 ap to remove it. In Rasputina's case you can drop them closer so they only take 1 ap to remove, but force a choice between another AP from slow or a discard. In a lot of situations a single AP is the difference between scoring that turn or not. In a big open map the ability isn't great, but if there's a lot of blocking or severe terrain dropping stuff like Pianos can be oppressive. 

If I had to pick a "fix" for the crew it would be to add more stuff that lets your models get around or ignore the drawbacks of clogging up the field with markers. The Ice Dancer's ability to move through them should be pretty standard to the crew imo. 

[Harlekin]

6 hours ago, ooshawn said:

Also Giving 3/4 of a crew slow once..... as I said earlier, depending on the strats and schemes, that's essentially the game being over.

If it was this easy Raspi would just dominate every tournament. Quite the opposite is true. Thus, nice idea but it obviously isn't easy at all as most competitive players tend to not bring Raspi at all. 

 

6 hours ago, Jordon said:

As I have said previously, my issue is not with power. If Slow and Onslaught are problems with Ice mirror

It obviously is no problem at all as Raspi is generally considered a rather bad (for competitive gaming) Master.

[Mycellanious]

22 minutes ago, Harlekin said:

If it was this easy Raspi would just dominate every tournament. Quite the opposite is true. Thus, nice idea but it obviously isn't easy at all as most competitive players tend to not bring Raspi at all. 

 

It obviously is no problem at all as Raspi is generally considered a rather bad (for competitive gaming) Master.

Tbh when I see Raspi on the other side of the board I breathe a sigh of relief lmao

[ooshawn]

I specified depending on the schemes and strats . I don't know what else to say. Best of luck 

[Cats Laughing]

21 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I agree. I don't play Rasputina so my opinion might not be worth much, but dropping pianos with Zipp is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, imo. Getting to do that at bigger ranges and have a  discard/slow tacked on is amazing. If you drop a marker outside of 1 and in the way of objectives, many models will have to spend a whole turn dealing with it. 1ap to move close and 1 ap to remove it. In Rasputina's case you can drop them closer so they only take 1 ap to remove, but force a choice between another AP from slow or a discard. In a lot of situations a single AP is the difference between scoring that turn or not. In a big open map the ability isn't great, but if there's a lot of blocking or severe terrain dropping stuff like Pianos can be oppressive. 

If I had to pick a "fix" for the crew it would be to add more stuff that lets your models get around or ignore the drawbacks of clogging up the field with markers. The Ice Dancer's ability to move through them should be pretty standard to the crew imo. 

Your last paragraph points to a big difference between Zipp's pianos and Rasputina's Ice Pillars.  A good number of models in Zipp's keyword have flight or leap to ignore Zipp's pianos, or can be carried around by those with flight.  Zipp himself ignores the cover from his pianos with his gun, as does Merris.

 

There's a bunch of other differences (which imho is important for keeping crews different and the game interesting), but I agree with you that Rasputina's crew should face fewer drawbacks from her own pillars.

[Filox]

Okay, I saw some nice clash of opinions, that what I wanted and it's nice we did not jumped to our throats! So, summing up what I read in questions to you all:

Is 6 potential attacks (range around 22") for 2 with cost of: 3 discarded cards + cheats/stone for triggers + duel cheats is strong on master right now? I think it's absurdly stupid, same as LJ 7 attacks.

Piano vs Ice Pillar is also nice clash of mechanics. They use is to block movement and increase AP cost of models who want to move thru them. I see Piano marker being more compatible with Infamous then Ice Pillar with December. Mostly because Zipp ignores cover from them and has flight so he can just go thru them. Rasputina gains range but her damage abilities are weakend by Ice Pillars. Also as @4thstringersaid about threat range. Problem with this is this one, you can easily try and shoot the enemy but hitting enemies on Cover or Concealment is not good idea for master actions. You are going from 6v5 to 6v6 with neg on damage. This is why you probably still gonna just Freeze Over 2-3 times also triggers for this action is much easier to get, mostly because you can top it with low mask and discard card. It's the same as you cheated the duel to gain trigger. Onslaught is nice trigger, but only on models which deals big damage with it with high stat (Francisco for example). But personally, I'm not sure if Onslaught should even be on Rasputina. We cannot buff her main attack action too much, because of it. We cannot change Freeze Over because of the same sake.

Idea with if this model is a Crew Leader, this model can... is nice. Would reward Raspa crew at least a little bit. Although someone mentioned playing with crew is not rewarding, and I think too. The sacrifice do December is useless because models which have it does not kill. Raspa is all about burning actions with Freeze Over and Ice Pillars. Silent Ones job is to heal and make more Ice Pillar. Snowstorm cannot kill with Shockwaves to make reliable ability to generate SS. In melee he is way too weak. Acolyte of December is way too techy and underpowered to be used as killer on battlefield. Overall this ability does not work in entire crew. 

Also, Ice Golem is weakest of all Golems in AR. He is slowest from them all (them being Fire, Grave, Metal and Whiskey). Fire Golem having tactical to just place itself on the enemy. Grave Golem hacing better walk and a lot of abilities to push him around from all over RR, Metal having Ride the Rails and Off the rails which is better charge which just goes off. Whiskey having nimble. He has the worst toughness from them all. Fire Golem can spend Burning for damage reduction up to +2 (a little worse armor) but better Df and almost infinity generations of Burning. Grave Golem just don't dies. Metal has armor +2 and better Df, ability to generate Shielded. Whiskey better stats, same armor and beer goggles ffs. As damage goes he is okay if you are attacking enemy model with slow and you have Ice Pillar next to you. It all comes to 3x 5/6/8 damage. Overall let's say 15 and 24 damage values for him. Fire Golem goes from 3/4/5 x2 + burning so in the end we have 7 to 11 damage. Grave Golem goes for 3/4/6 x2 so in total we have 6 and 12. Metal has 6 + 2(from Mv duel) to 12 + 2 + Vent Steam. Whiskey Golem goes for 6 + 2 (from poison, if you go for onslaught we have 12) to 24 damage with a walk to spare :P. So in total:

• Ice Golem 15 - 24 + heal from Ice Pillars
• Fire Golem 7 - 13 + place in 8"
• Metal Golem 8 - 14 + Vent Steam + Shielded +2
• Grave Golem 6 - 12 + heal(for 1 or 2 but we are saying that was they star turn)
• Whiskey Golem 12 - 24 + Walk

From everything what I listed here and how I look at them. Ice Golem does not even has highest damage value from all golems, same goes for toughness, mobility, problemality and etc.

[Adran]

12 minutes ago, Filox said:

Okay, I saw some nice clash of opinions, that what I wanted and it's nice we did not jumped to our throats! So, summing up what I read in questions to you all:

Is 6 potential attacks (range around 22") for 2 with cost of: 3 discarded cards + cheats/stone for triggers + duel cheats is strong on master right now? I think it's absurdly stupid, same as LJ 7 attacks.

Piano vs Ice Pillar is also nice clash of mechanics. They use is to block movement and increase AP cost of models who want to move thru them. I see Piano marker being more compatible with Infamous then Ice Pillar with December. Mostly because Zipp ignores cover from them and has flight so he can just go thru them. Rasputina gains range but her damage abilities are weakend by Ice Pillars. Also as @4thstringersaid about threat range. Problem with this is this one, you can easily try and shoot the enemy but hitting enemies on Cover or Concealment is not good idea for master actions. You are going from 6v5 to 6v6 with neg on damage. This is why you probably still gonna just Freeze Over 2-3 times also triggers for this action is much easier to get, mostly because you can top it with low mask and discard card. It's the same as you cheated the duel to gain trigger. Onslaught is nice trigger, but only on models which deals big damage with it with high stat (Francisco for example). But personally, I'm not sure if Onslaught should even be on Rasputina. We cannot buff her main attack action too much, because of it. We cannot change Freeze Over because of the same sake.

Idea with if this model is a Crew Leader, this model can... is nice. Would reward Raspa crew at least a little bit. Although someone mentioned playing with crew is not rewarding, and I think too. The sacrifice do December is useless because models which have it does not kill. Raspa is all about burning actions with Freeze Over and Ice Pillars. Silent Ones job is to heal and make more Ice Pillar. Snowstorm cannot kill with Shockwaves to make reliable ability to generate SS. In melee he is way too weak. Acolyte of December is way too techy and underpowered to be used as killer on battlefield. Overall this ability does not work in entire crew. 

Also, Ice Golem is weakest of all Golems in AR. He is slowest from them all (them being Fire, Grave, Metal and Whiskey). Fire Golem having tactical to just place itself on the enemy. Grave Golem hacing better walk and a lot of abilities to push him around from all over RR, Metal having Ride the Rails and Off the rails which is better charge which just goes off. Whiskey having nimble. He has the worst toughness from them all. Fire Golem can spend Burning for damage reduction up to +2 (a little worse armor) but better Df and almost infinity generations of Burning. Grave Golem just don't dies. Metal has armor +2 and better Df, ability to generate Shielded. Whiskey better stats, same armor and beer goggles ffs. As damage goes he is okay if you are attacking enemy model with slow and you have Ice Pillar next to you. It all comes to 3x 5/6/8 damage. Overall let's say 15 and 24 damage values for him. Fire Golem goes from 3/4/5 x2 + burning so in the end we have 7 to 11 damage. Grave Golem goes for 3/4/6 x2 so in total we have 6 and 12. Metal has 6 + 2(from Mv duel) to 12 + 2 + Vent Steam. Whiskey Golem goes for 6 + 2 (from poison, if you go for onslaught we have 12) to 24 damage with a walk to spare :P. So in total:

• Ice Golem 15 - 24 + heal from Ice Pillars
• Fire Golem 7 - 13 + place in 8"
• Metal Golem 8 - 14 + Vent Steam + Shielded +2
• Grave Golem 6 - 12 + heal(for 1 or 2 but we are saying that was they star turn)
• Whiskey Golem 12 - 24 + Walk

From everything what I listed here and how I look at them. Ice Golem does not even has highest damage value from all golems, same goes for toughness, mobility, problemality and etc.

I think you have missed the potential value of hazardous aura that does 2 damage. If you can get the golem into enemies, that is brutal. The trick is getting him to be able to use it. But the dream is probably charge into the enemy, hit 2 models for 5/6/8 then put them all in hazardous2 auras.

[Jordon]

Yeah I've gotten some serious work from the Ice Golem. Bear in mind that I also invest a lot in supporting him but in most my games, it's between the Golem or the Blessed that is typically my MVP. 

A 4" aura on a 50mm base is way bigger than you think and with the ability to give hazardous 2, it cannot be ignored. I always feel like I get my stones worth with him. Even if it's just in how it causes the opponent to react, it's often a game changer. 

That being said, I always bring Snow Storm to taxi him and I'll usually have 2 silent ones to keep him healed up. Silent ones work particularly well since they don't really care about the triggers when mirroring heals and there should always be a pillar nearby the golem to mirror from. 

Also I will typically run him with the SS cache upgrade. It gives a bit of added survivability and I can usually break even on its cost. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I've always thought Ice Golem is neat in theory on claim jump/leave your mark pools.

But he is superrrr vulnerable to irreducible damage. I sometimes do 6+ irreducible to him in a round, which of course makes him largely useless.

So definitely seems matchup dependent?

[Filox]

Well, if you Invest Snowstorm, Silent One or two and Upgrade you should get smth. But you Can do it on any HH and you will gain the same. Problem with Ice Golem that I have, is that he is lacking in many aspects to other Golem. Okay, we can Do Hazardous but what do we have to proc it? Raspa blasts and Blessed & Snowstorm melee... 

Metal Golem also has Hazardous which can go on a trigger and gives him concealing. He can push enemy models + your crew has Many pushes as well. To. Top it off he has 19" Threat range

[Filox]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I think you have missed the potential value of hazardous aura that does 2 damage. If you can get the golem into enemies, that is brutal. The trick is getting him to be able to use it. But the dream is probably charge into the enemy, hit 2 models for 5/6/8 then put them all in hazardous2 auras.

I love dreams, but it's exactly the same when You blast 5 models for 3/4. Results are the same, blasts are easier to do. 

[Harlekin]

I'm another one in the boat with the Ice Golem. Possibility of Min5 dam and the Snow Storm movement make him a real threat. 

Granted that he is by far more valuable with Raspi than with Sandeep as Raspi gets out Slow rather easily and the reliable ranged healing in the crew (healing for a ARM+2 model is just pita for the opponent).

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Filox said:

Well, if you Invest Snowstorm, Silent One or two and Upgrade you should get smth. But you Can do it on any HH and you will gain the same. Problem with Ice Golem that I have, is that he is lacking in many aspects to other Golem. Okay, we can Do Hazardous but what do we have to proc it? Raspa blasts and Blessed & Snowstorm melee... 

Metal Golem also has Hazardous which can go on a trigger and gives him concealing. He can push enemy models + your crew has Many pushes as well. To. Top it off he has 19" Threat range

For me it is more about claiming territory than actually dealing damage with it. If the ice golem uses the ability, it gets very hard to score (or deny) claim jump & leave your mark.

So I think it is more a zone control tool than a damage tool.

That said, it always seems a bit lacklustre when I face it, but also I have only played Molly against Rasputina, which is a terrible, terrible matchup for the December crew.

[Harlekin]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That said, it always seems a bit lacklustre when I face it, but also I have only played Molly against Rasputina, which is a terrible, terrible matchup for the December crew.

There are a bit too many of those bad matchups for a December crew. I guess that's the main thing. 

Any crew having you discard, reducing your max hand size, with re-positioning, with easy marker removal, with easy condition removal, with better ranged etc. etc. is just a bad matchup for Raspi - so, almost any crew. 

[Filox]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For me it is more about claiming territory than actually dealing damage with it. If the ice golem uses the ability, it gets very hard to score (or deny) claim jump & leave your mark.

So I think it is more a zone control tool than a damage tool.

That said, it always seems a bit lacklustre when I face it, but also I have only played Molly against Rasputina, which is a terrible, terrible matchup for the December crew.

One of the problems for tough offensive models is low mobility. For me 10SS models should be game changers if played correctly. But, there is also a lot of counters to them, way too many. Every big model has ability to move around which is important to not waste 10SS for walking for 3 turns and hit once (especially in mobility meta). Most of those models can also rely mostly on themself with little help from crew to get job done. In Raspa, you have to build around him just for sake to małe value out of him, which leaves us at low value gain from supporting models. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Filox said:

One of the problems for tough offensive models is low mobility. For me 10SS models should be game changers if played correctly. But, there is also a lot of counters to them, way too many. Every big model has ability to move around which is important to not waste 10SS for walking for 3 turns and hit once (especially in mobility meta). Most of those models can also rely mostly on themself with little help from crew to get job done. In Raspa, you have to build around him just for sake to małe value out of him, which leaves us at low value gain from supporting models. 

I agree, but this I'd like to see addressed a bit by Gaining Grounds as well.

For instance, what if you had a turf war/leylines set of markers, but instead of doing anything to them you just need a model standing by each.

Suddenly having a nigh-unkillable model to plonk on the centre with a hazardous aura becomes reasonably strong. More ways to score with these slow 'bulldozer' types of models would be nice.

[Filox]

By the way, If wyrd is scared of 21" Of 6 winter strike, reduce its range to 8" making Raspy a. Total of 17" range on attack and adding some more trigger or remove discard from Ice Mirrors. 

[Filox]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

I agree, but this I'd like to see addressed a bit by Gaining Grounds as well.

For instance, what if you had a turf war/leylines set of markers, but instead of doing anything to them you just need a model standing by each.

Suddenly having a nigh-unkillable model to plonk on the centre with a hazardous aura becomes reasonably strong. More ways to score with these slow 'bulldozer' types of models would be nice.

Yeah, but in current crew building mechanic you Can easily deal with Ice Golem. Just Analyze Weakness him and he is pretty much dead in 2-3 activasions (including heal from Silent One) him being only armor +2 with low Df and low mobility makes him to easy to pick off in the meantime or avoid completly

[Filox]

By the way, Wyrd could do a potcast or interviews with players, rule/model makers about current meta, tiers and how they plan to work around them or directly with them. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Filox said:

Yeah, but in current crew building mechanic you Can easily deal with Ice Golem. Just Analyze Weakness him and he is pretty much dead in 2-3 activasions (including heal from Silent One) him being only armor +2 with low Df and low mobility makes him to easy to pick off in the meantime or avoid completly

True. I don't really like armor +2 from a design perspective.

If you don't have the tools to deal with it, it is absolutely oppressive. If you do have the tools to deal with it, the models are usually too weak for their cost.

I do like armor +2 on models with ~4-5 health. For those ones it seems like it is easy to balance them still. But armor +2 on like an ice golem means it is either hard to kill or just melts quickly. But then it doesn't make any sense that only weak models would have armor +2.

[Thatguy]

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

True. I don't really like armor +2 from a design perspective.

If you don't have the tools to deal with it, it is absolutely oppressive. If you do have the tools to deal with it, the models are usually too weak for their cost.

I do like armor +2 on models with ~4-5 health. For those ones it seems like it is easy to balance them still. But armor +2 on like an ice golem means it is either hard to kill or just melts quickly. But then it doesn't make any sense that only weak models would have armor +2.

I can definitely agree with this. The Whiskey Golem is an absolute beast, until he runs into Mad Dog and is deleted in a single activation.