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Rasputina - problems and possible fixes


Filox

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On 12/28/2020 at 7:41 PM, Filox said:

Rasputina fixes:
There were a lot of topics about her threat range being 21", which is huge in current stat of the game, although for the static keyword as December, there is no other way, Walk action is least taken action in entire keyword, outside of course for Ice Golem which has to finally get into melee range. Another issue are resources which if wanted to be used as they were intended Rasputina would run out of cards at her activation every turn, making Freeze Over only viable attack action on her card. Fix for this would be removing the cost of discard cards for triggers if she would use Ice Pillar as medium of her actions, reduce range on most actions to 8" (Ice Pillars, Winter's Strike). To make Winter's Strike a viable attack option on her card, the faster way of fixing it would either removing projectile action from her or giving ability to ignore Friendly Fire and cover granted by December models and Ice Pillars. Onslaught is not a trigger for Rasputina in some opinion and I agree with this, would like to see it changed for something else. Freeze Over could get trigger or ability to  ignore December for damages and conditions  and just push them instead, same as Snowstorm shockwaves.

I think that giving Raspy expert marksman (ignore Friendly Fire on :ranged actions) would help with Winter's Strike issues. She should have projectile on the attack, as she has 21" threat range (or 17" after the changes), so tying her in melee should be viable strategy against her (same as for other ranged masters in game - like Sonnia, Cooper or Wong). The cost of discarding cards to declare triggers is too steep a price IMO.

On 12/28/2020 at 7:41 PM, Filox said:

Ice Golem:
Raw damaging models are not viable (at least in current state of the game and GGs), we can see it in Nekima, Victorias, LJ & Sonnia cases, thou ability to help him around the board faster is dire need. Fix for this would be either giving him Ice Path or ability to attack through Ice Pillars. There were also ideas to add triggers on Blizzard action to make it more rewarding.

I think Ice Path or Onwards! would help him with the movement issues. Or, if you are in fear of repositioning effects, Laugh Off could help him too. It's only golem that doesn't have any Action or Ability to make him faster.

On 12/28/2020 at 7:41 PM, Filox said:

December Acolytes:
They want to keep enemy models near Ice Pillars thou they have projectiles and do not ignore cover. Analyze Weakness is the only thing you could consider an option to pick them (there are not a lot of heave armor crews which) Tools for the job is also strange ability on them, although they biggest weakness is lack of defensive tech for 7SS model. Quick fix for them would be giving them Tundra Hunter which would mitigate Ice Pillars cover in some way and reward you for great positioning. Also Df stat increase or some other ability would also really help them being a viable pick.

I like idea of giving them Tundra Hunter.

On 12/28/2020 at 7:41 PM, Filox said:

Hoar Cats:
They just need leap. This can be acquired by removing manipulative and/or Tundra Hunter.

I don't like the idea of giving second model in keyword Leap. Instead of Manipulative, I'd give them Agile or Nimble.

On 12/28/2020 at 7:41 PM, Filox said:

Snowstorm:
No clear job outside pushing Ice Golem into combat (for 9SS it's overpay). In melee combat he not decent at all, he won't hold the line even for one turn. Fix would be increasing his survivability in combat by giving him either HtW or Armor if he is next to Ice Pillar.

I think HtW/HtK would fit this model.

On 12/28/2020 at 7:41 PM, Filox said:

Ice Gamins: 
Are waste of SS, either must be able to be summoned or some serious buffs are required. Compared to other Gamins they fall really short.

I'd give them 5 MV and stat 7 or 8 on their Encase in Ice.

On 12/28/2020 at 7:41 PM, Filox said:

Ice Dences:
Great scheme runners, although the can be shot down way too fast, also they for 6SS they are not so great scheme runners. Giving them manipulative would suffice to keep them long enough so they can do their jobs. Ability to change Ice Pillars into scheme markers would be great, although it may be too much. 

Maybe instead of freeze the corpse give them action to target scheme/ice pillar within 2" and replace it with other marker?

On 12/28/2020 at 7:41 PM, Filox said:

Keyword abilities fixes:
Sacrifice to December - change to :aura8" for example, and whenever enemy (or just models) dies within 2" of Ice Pillar you can either get SS or draw card. It would help other models & keyword to use this ability, and with this change we could keep this ability on key/supportive models.

I don't like this. Against certain crews you could generate absurd amount of stones and cards by killing the models with Raspy for example.

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4 hours ago, Cedar said:

I don't like this. Against certain crews you could generate absurd amount of stones and cards by killing the models with Raspy for example.

It's exactly the same as you Hamelin vs Jedza, or Sommer and some other masters. In some cases it my biggest value of the time, in some it may not even trigger once.

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9 hours ago, Cedar said:

I think that giving Raspy expert marksman (ignore Friendly Fire on :ranged actions) would help with Winter's Strike issues. She should have projectile on the attack, as she has 21" threat range (or 17" after the changes), so tying her in melee should be viable strategy against her (same as for other ranged masters in game - like Sonnia, Cooper or Wong). The cost of discarding cards to declare triggers is too steep a price IMO.

I think Ice Path or Onwards! would help him with the movement issues. Or, if you are in fear of repositioning effects, Laugh Off could help him too. It's only golem that doesn't have any Action or Ability to make him faster.

I like idea of giving them Tundra Hunter.

I don't like the idea of giving second model in keyword Leap. Instead of Manipulative, I'd give them Agile or Nimble.

I think HtW/HtK would fit this model.

I'd give them 5 MV and stat 7 or 8 on their Encase in Ice.

Maybe instead of freeze the corpse give them action to target scheme/ice pillar within 2" and replace it with other marker?

I don't like this. Against certain crews you could generate absurd amount of stones and cards by killing the models with Raspy for example.

ignoring ff will not help because she shoots at models within 21", that means that your problems are concealment and cover only

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After going through your 3 parts @Filox, these are my ideas, I tried to keep them simple:

 

Rasputina (I just mainly touched your ideas):

  • Should keep Ruthless.
  • Surge trigger on Freeze Over.

I really like these 2, I just made minor adjustements:

  • "If this model is the crew leader, models with Demise(Frozen Heart) count as Ice Pillars for other friendly models. If the Ice Pillar would be removed the targeted model suffer 2 irreducible damage instead."
  • Add ability that let's her ignore friendly models with Demise(Frozen Heart) for friendly Fire purposes

I would give this as an ability to the December models directly and not Raspy:

  • "This model can ignore blocking trait of Ice Pillars" (or just for the purposes of Cover it's okay)

I like the summoning idea, with maybe a limit of 2 gamins and they suffer half of their live as irreducible damage, but I'm not 100% it would be well balanced and there is a lot of text in her card.

Wendigo:

  • It shouldn't have manipulative, doesn't make sense. It should have HtW or Tundra Hunter (check later on the Hoarcats)

Snowstorm:

  • Definitely needs HtW.
  • Ice Tornado should lose the gun.
  • 1-2 interesting triggers in December's Command, like "Focused attention", "Surge" or "Reposition". Another posibility would be a trigger that if the model is a minion, it can charge instead of being pushed, so it opens some synergy with the Gamins.

December Acolyte

  • As said before: "This model can ignore blocking trait of Ice Pillars"
  • Tundra Hunter (check on the Hoarcats)
  • Trigger for Focused Attention (it's tomes, the one that they're missing).
  • New quick action


Hoarcats

  • Current Tundra Hunter: Those positives to attack and damage that are there in a model that is going to have little to no benefit from using them.
  • My idea for Tundra Hunter: "If this model is within aura 2" of an Ice Pillar, it gains Disguised". A hunter from the tundra, relies more on being hidden and mesmerizing with the environment.
  • They really don't need a leap, but they need unimpeded.

Blessed of December

  • Unimpeded

Ice Dancers

  • Manipulative

I also don't have any idea if this will help them with Colette. I would love @Plaag's input here.

Ice Golem:

  • Trigger on Blizzard to prevent him to be moved by enemy effects (the first part of Planted Roots basically).

Ice Gamin:

  • Ice Sliding: If this model starts its activation within 1" of an Ice Pillar, they gain +1 Mv during their activation.
  • Encase in Ice: +1 to the Stat and a trigger to remove an ice pillar within 2" of the target to heal it 1 (ideally with Tomes).

 

I tried to keep it simple, The less the changes, the better, but seriously, December, Wizz-Bang and Qi and Gong really need some work.

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3 hours ago, ShinChan said:

After going through your 3 parts @Filox, these are my ideas, I tried to keep them simple:

 

Rasputina (I just mainly touched your ideas):

  • Should keep Ruthless.
  • Surge trigger on Freeze Over.

I really like these 2, I just made minor adjustements:

  • "If this model is the crew leader, models with Demise(Frozen Heart) count as Ice Pillars for other friendly models. If the Ice Pillar would be removed the targeted model suffer 2 irreducible damage instead."
  • Add ability that let's her ignore friendly models with Demise(Frozen Heart) for friendly Fire purposes

I would give this as an ability to the December models directly and not Raspy:

  • "This model can ignore blocking trait of Ice Pillars" (or just for the purposes of Cover it's okay)

I like the summoning idea, with maybe a limit of 2 gamins and they suffer half of their live as irreducible damage, but I'm not 100% it would be well balanced and there is a lot of text in her card.

Wendigo:

  • It shouldn't have manipulative, doesn't make sense. It should have HtW or Tundra Hunter (check later on the Hoarcats)

Snowstorm:

  • Definitely needs HtW.
  • Ice Tornado should lose the gun.
  • 1-2 interesting triggers in December's Command, like "Focused attention", "Surge" or "Reposition". Another posibility would be a trigger that if the model is a minion, it can charge instead of being pushed, so it opens some synergy with the Gamins.

December Acolyte

  • As said before: "This model can ignore blocking trait of Ice Pillars"
  • Tundra Hunter (check on the Hoarcats)
  • Trigger for Focused Attention (it's tomes, the one that they're missing).
  • New quick action


Hoarcats

  • Current Tundra Hunter: Those positives to attack and damage that are there in a model that is going to have little to no benefit from using them.
  • My idea for Tundra Hunter: "If this model is within aura 2" of an Ice Pillar, it gains Disguised". A hunter from the tundra, relies more on being hidden and mesmerizing with the environment.
  • They really don't need a leap, but they need unimpeded.

Blessed of December

  • Unimpeded

Ice Dancers

  • Manipulative

I also don't have any idea if this will help them with Colette. I would love @Plaag's input here.

Ice Golem:

  • Trigger on Blizzard to prevent him to be moved by enemy effects (the first part of Planted Roots basically).

Ice Gamin:

  • Ice Sliding: If this model starts its activation within 1" of an Ice Pillar, they gain +1 Mv during their activation.
  • Encase in Ice: +1 to the Stat and a trigger to remove an ice pillar within 2" of the target to heal it 1 (ideally with Tomes).

 

I tried to keep it simple, The less the changes, the better, but seriously, December, Wizz-Bang and Qi and Gong really need some work.

rasputina doesnt suffer from ff, only cover and concealment; abt ice dancers-dont know, they are useless, maybe give them serena will make sence

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1 hour ago, Plaag said:

rasputina doesnt suffer from ff, only cover and concealment; abt ice dancers-dont know, they are useless, maybe give them serena will make sence

Anything that could help utility-wise and not just increase the survivality? I think for the survivality Manipulative + Butterfly Jump should be enough.

Maybe a trigger to pulse Distracted on the Freeze Corpse or increase the TN of the Ice Path simple duel in +1 for each Distracted the models have.

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1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Anything that could help utility-wise and not just increase the survivality? I think for the survivality Manipulative + Butterfly Jump should be enough.

Maybe a trigger to pulse Distracted on the Freeze Corpse or increase the TN of the Ice Path simple duel in +1 for each Distracted the models have.

u still need to take into colette silent one for pillars and colette doesnt need ice dancers; in rasputina i dont know for what they are

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17 minutes ago, Plaag said:

u still need to take into colette silent one for pillars and colette doesnt need ice dancers; in rasputina i dont know for what they are

It's true they are useless in Colette, so they would need a quite a special fix, although what someone above already said. Change Freeze a Corpse for something like this? Bonus action of course, range 2"(and maybe some Stat 6 TN 10?), although I think TN would be too much) "Glacial Sculpture: Target a scheme or Ice Pillar marker withing range. Drop an Ice Pillar or friendly scheme marker in base contact with the target, then destroy the target.". It would help Rasputina in scheme running and in Colette she would hunt down enemy schemes with much more easy then the rest of the Perfmormer keyword. Making her scheme runner in December & tech model in Perfmormer.

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23 minutes ago, Harlekin said:

And about 1 per Keyword. So huge changes for 1 Keyword are not very likely.

Well, first Errata only touched the most broken models after a very short time of release so they didn't have enough data to implement more changes. Right now after a little bit more time player base found out more of those pesky op models (looking at you Von Schtook), so in my opinion we might see a little more, but yeah. I don't think they will update entire keyword, like we discuss in this post. Probably single update to one/two model and/or keyword ability. That would be maximum they would do.

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1 hour ago, Filox said:

Well, first Errata only touched the most broken models after a very short time of release so they didn't have enough data to implement more changes. Right now after a little bit more time player base found out more of those pesky op models (looking at you Von Schtook), so in my opinion we might see a little more, but yeah. I don't think they will update entire keyword, like we discuss in this post. Probably single update to one/two model and/or keyword ability. That would be maximum they would do.

u dont need to expect any changes in rasputina keyword, but maybe wyrds will have more resourses in future,i hope we dont need to wait until 40k)

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7 minutes ago, Plaag said:

u dont need to expect any changes in rasputina keyword, but maybe wyrds will have more resourses in future,i hope we dont need to wait until 40k)

Well, yeah It' also a possibility we won't get any changes and maybe some OP enforcer in the future which will truly help Rasputina become top tier master. I just personally wouldn't like this approach 😕 

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2 hours ago, Filox said:

Well, yeah It' also a possibility we won't get any changes and maybe some OP enforcer in the future which will truly help Rasputina become top tier master. I just personally wouldn't like this approach 😕 

she is not good as master, so enforser wouldnt help-she already have blessed, he is great

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I agree, it's probably unlikely to expect mass change amongst a single keyword. Gut feeling says your more likely to see nerfs than buffs, of which I can't expect any nerfs from December.

However I feel like just improving Raspy herself would be a pretty massive change and bring up the whole keyword. So if we could only vote for one, then my vote is for Raspy! :D  

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Most people that don't enjoy a game, aren't getting the high "highs" they want out of a game. That's why games that are insane like Dragon ball fighterz can be outrageous and still have a reasonable hierarchy of characters. When you try to fix your game's balance by pushing down from the top and squishing the system, it's my opinion that you just make it more dull. It's best to lift the load from the bottom, and elevate the whole game.

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2 hours ago, Jordon said:

I agree, it's probably unlikely to expect mass change amongst a single keyword. Gut feeling says your more likely to see nerfs than buffs, of which I can't expect any nerfs from December.

However I feel like just improving Raspy herself would be a pretty massive change and bring up the whole keyword. So if we could only vote for one, then my vote is for Raspy! :D  

I wouldn't be that surprised to see Silent Ones get a nerf for being a range ~16" healer and being taken OOK frequently.

I really wish games were a bit more gung ho about making changes. Some of the best changes to 2e came about when they started buffing the trash models towards the end of the edition.

Give my Slateridge Maulers a fez again pls Wyrd.

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5 hours ago, Jinn said:

I really wish games were a bit more gung ho about making changes. Some of the best changes to 2e came about when they started buffing the trash models towards the end of the edition.

Give my Slateridge Maulers a fez again pls Wyrd.

Giving my opinion here, but I wish games were less gung ho about it for 2 reasons. 

I have literally abandoned games companies because they were too liberal with their errata. Guildball was only about 100 models, and they seemed to errata 30-60 cards every year, which after 2 goes through I just stopped playing. It was just to much effort to keep up with the changes, and everything you used and played against changed all the time.  I think alot of my problem was it was based on the percentage of the range that changed, because Wyrd probably changed a similar number of models in the same time, but it had about 6 times the number of models in its range, so it didn't have such a large impact on my playing of the game. 

Secondly, and this really is just a personal gripe, the more errata there are, the more people seem to get lazy. I have a perception that as the number of errata has increased there is a much larger player view of "I lost, therefore things aren't balanced, I want an errata". That's taking it to its extreme, but it does seem to appear that Errata has become the choice rather than learn how to use what you have. I have used "underpowered" models for years, against "overpowered" models, and occasionally "over powered" models against "underpowered" and what I generally tend to see is that the player that is better wins, even if the crews power levels are unequal. 

This isn't the same as saying there isn't a problem, but I don't think the problem is as wide spread as you might assume if you were to just read these forums.  There probably are models that are so poor that they really need a boost, but I'm not sure its as many as you see being asked for it on the forums. 

(That said I loved Boris and his Fez, but I somehow don't count free upgrades the same as errata in my head).

 

7 hours ago, ooshawn said:

Most people that don't enjoy a game, aren't getting the high "highs" they want out of a game. That's why games that are insane like Dragon ball fighterz can be outrageous and still have a reasonable hierarchy of characters. When you try to fix your game's balance by pushing down from the top and squishing the system, it's my opinion that you just make it more dull. It's best to lift the load from the bottom, and elevate the whole game.

It is always more popular to just make things better than to make things worse for people. So if you can do that then its a good idea. But if you only have 1 or 2 models at the top over performing, then it is a lot easier to bring them back to the group. 

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4 minutes ago, Adran said:

Giving my opinion here, but I wish games were less gung ho about it for 2 reasons. 

I have literally abandoned games companies because they were too liberal with their errata. Guildball was only about 100 models, and they seemed to errata 30-60 cards every year, which after 2 goes through I just stopped playing. It was just to much effort to keep up with the changes, and everything you used and played against changed all the time.  I think alot of my problem was it was based on the percentage of the range that changed, because Wyrd probably changed a similar number of models in the same time, but it had about 6 times the number of models in its range, so it didn't have such a large impact on my playing of the game. 

Secondly, and this really is just a personal gripe, the more errata there are, the more people seem to get lazy. I have a perception that as the number of errata has increased there is a much larger player view of "I lost, therefore things aren't balanced, I want an errata". That's taking it to its extreme, but it does seem to appear that Errata has become the choice rather than learn how to use what you have. I have used "underpowered" models for years, against "overpowered" models, and occasionally "over powered" models against "underpowered" and what I generally tend to see is that the player that is better wins, even if the crews power levels are unequal. 

This isn't the same as saying there isn't a problem, but I don't think the problem is as wide spread as you might assume if you were to just read these forums.  There probably are models that are so poor that they really need a boost, but I'm not sure its as many as you see being asked for it on the forums. 

(That said I loved Boris and his Fez, but I somehow don't count free upgrades the same as errata in my head).

 

It is always more popular to just make things better than to make things worse for people. So if you can do that then its a good idea. But if you only have 1 or 2 models at the top over performing, then it is a lot easier to bring them back to the group. 

Not to mention the issue of power-creep.

Plus, errata always comes with a risk of invalidating people's crews. That started to happen to eternal formats in MTG, and a lot of people quit as a result.

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

Giving my opinion here, but I wish games were less gung ho about it for 2 reasons. 

I have literally abandoned games companies because they were too liberal with their errata. Guildball was only about 100 models, and they seemed to errata 30-60 cards every year, which after 2 goes through I just stopped playing. It was just to much effort to keep up with the changes, and everything you used and played against changed all the time.  I think alot of my problem was it was based on the percentage of the range that changed, because Wyrd probably changed a similar number of models in the same time, but it had about 6 times the number of models in its range, so it didn't have such a large impact on my playing of the game. 

Secondly, and this really is just a personal gripe, the more errata there are, the more people seem to get lazy. I have a perception that as the number of errata has increased there is a much larger player view of "I lost, therefore things aren't balanced, I want an errata". That's taking it to its extreme, but it does seem to appear that Errata has become the choice rather than learn how to use what you have. I have used "underpowered" models for years, against "overpowered" models, and occasionally "over powered" models against "underpowered" and what I generally tend to see is that the player that is better wins, even if the crews power levels are unequal. 

This isn't the same as saying there isn't a problem, but I don't think the problem is as wide spread as you might assume if you were to just read these forums.  There probably are models that are so poor that they really need a boost, but I'm not sure its as many as you see being asked for it on the forums. 

(That said I loved Boris and his Fez, but I somehow don't count free upgrades the same as errata in my head).

 

It is always more popular to just make things better than to make things worse for people. So if you can do that then its a good idea. But if you only have 1 or 2 models at the top over performing, then it is a lot easier to bring them back to the group. 

Regular updates or more aggressive updates don't have to be bad.

Your description feels like a company who aren't reading data correctly or simply don't have any. Erratas should come out of tournament data and solid directives.*

If you've got 200 players and 1000 games worth of data you can make some good adjustments. If you've got a load of comments on a forum with no evidence of games and only one side of the story, then you need to be careful.

The data needs to tell you there's a problem, then chatting with the players can give you suggested fixes.

The biggest problem I see with nerfs and buffs is that developers have a habit of over swinging. Small nerfs and buffs are always better than big ones. If it takes you two or three erratas, then so be it.

The other annoying problem with erratas is invalidating books. It would be great if you could print black and white cards from the app. Even if they don't have the artwork.

 

 

* It's worth saying tournament data isn't everything - casual play will make up a large number of sales. But tournaments provide data easily, where as home and club games are much more difficult to track. Changes to models for high skill players can result in lower skill players feeling like things are very unbalanced. However, the Malifaux app should be providing heaps of data. It will be interesting to see the number of masters people have made crews for Vs the number of times those masters are used in a game.

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17 hours ago, Harlekin said:

huge changes for 1 Keyword are not very likely

I'd like to think that sustained complaints about the core function/mechanic/style of a Keyword could lead to a re-work of said Keyword. December seems to have overly-niche applications and a not-very-exciting style, which would improve with a minor/medium re-work.

Perhaps that is wishful thinking, but given how much of the Malifaux that has been happening has been internationally trackable and rewatchable, this might be the only year since Malifaux's birth where Wyrd can get something resembling data (crap, spotty, self-selecting data, but something to guide a review nonetheless).

2 hours ago, Adran said:

it does seem to appear that Errata has become the choice rather than learn how to use what you have.

  

47 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

Your description feels like a company who aren't reading data correctly or simply don't have any. Erratas should come out of tournament data and solid directives.*

 

Just to chip in regarding this point and Guild Ball - it was pretty much written as a tight tournament-y game (or SFG voluntarily transitioned it into one rapidly) that required this kind of ongoing balancing, due to the smaller scale and tighter options buffet. The (very active) tournament scene was just about the only thing that SFG tracked closely, by many accounts.

The argument of whether that is a healthy way to run a game ecosystem is different. I absolutely agree that Malifaux specifically would probably be better not managed like that.

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