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Rasputina - problems and possible fixes


Filox

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So ironically maybe Ice Golem should be fixed to...

  • Drop armor 2 to 1.
  • Increase defense to 5
  • Drop bonus action
  • Give new bonus action: one with the ice

One with the ice:Ā Can only be used when in base contact with an ice pillar.Ā Target an ice pillar within X inches.Ā Do something cool.

Do something cool could be:

  • Place into base contact with the new ice pillar (I don't like just using movement buffs to fix models though).
  • Grab a model near the far ice pillar, and place it in base contact with the close ice pillar.
  • Can attack through the ice pillar.
  • Make is so the ice pillar loses destructible until the end phase (this would possibly be too broken).
  • Etc.

Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

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4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So ironically maybe Ice Golem should be fixed to...

  • Drop armor 2 to 1.
  • Increase defense to 5
  • Drop bonus action
  • Give new bonus action: one with the ice

One with the ice:Ā Can only be used when in base contact with an ice pillar.Ā Target an ice pillar within X inches.Ā Do something cool.

Do something cool could be:

  • Place into base contact with the new ice pillar (I don't like just using movement buffs to fix models though).
  • Grab a model near the far ice pillar, and place it in base contact with the close ice pillar.
  • Can attack through the ice pillar.
  • Make is so the ice pillar loses destructible until the end phase (this would possibly be too broken).
  • Etc.

Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I think the idea that he inteacts with Ice Pillars is neat. Would aplly this school of thought to entire December. Ice pillars then could be then just little more then range incrase and some blocking markers. Possibilities are endless, just need to ask Wyrd really nice tho šŸ˜‚

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7 hours ago, Filox said:

I love dreams, but it's exactly the same when You blast 5 models for 3/4. Results are the same, blasts are easier to do.Ā 

Honestly, I don't think it is the same, my Ice golem dream would be doing totally more damage than your blastsĀ šŸ˜„.Ā  And the only difficult thing is getting the enemy grouped up in an area, which both have, and getting the Ice golem there.Ā 

I agree that armour +2 is a very strange thing, in terms of balance. And thats one of those things that really hurts the Ice golem. Arcanists use lotsĀ  of Armour. Taking armour ignoring things against arcanists has become a default. I'm not quite so sure its as extreme this edition as before, but the ice golem does not do well against armour ignoring hits. But if you haven't got a way to ignore armour, its a lot of work for most things to get through those wounds. It makes him a very meta choice. On the whole the risk of anti armour and the slowness of him make it harder to get a good result from him, than the opponent not being able to deal with him.Ā 

A well played Ice golem has the potential to have a huge impact on the table. But there are several easy counterplays, which often lead to it having a mediocre effect.Ā 

Ā 

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1 hour ago, Plaag said:

just give ice golem laugh off, he will be good

Laugh Off does not help much, true you won't be pushed away, but you still won't gain much distance, making him able to fight turn 3+ (2 if you enemy seeks fight with him, orĀ if you bringedĀ Snowstorm to push him up). Ice Path on him with a Sudden Strike trigger would help a lot, and still it would be less oppressive then Ride the Rails and Off the Rails on Metal Golem. If those changes would be applied, his threat range would be 8" + 4" + 1" with 2 attacks or 8" + 1" with 3 attacks. Is it broken (if nothing else would change on hisĀ card), I don't know. My judgement may be clouded by Ride the Rails which I think is OP as heck ability.

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2 hours ago, Filox said:

Laugh Off does not help much, true you won't be pushed away, but you still won't gain much distance, making him able to fight turn 3+ (2 if you enemy seeks fight with him, orĀ if you bringedĀ Snowstorm to push him up). Ice Path on him with a Sudden Strike trigger would help a lot, and still it would be less oppressive then Ride the Rails and Off the Rails on Metal Golem. If those changes would be applied, his threat range would be 8" + 4" + 1" with 2 attacks or 8" + 1" with 3 attacks. Is it broken (if nothing else would change on hisĀ card), I don't know. My judgement may be clouded by Ride the Rails which I think is OP as heck ability.

no, u are wrong, laugh off will make ice golem great, because he have only one problem-he is running to the enemy all game long because of pushes and places; ice golem can be in place where u need him very easy but opp just make him go away

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2 hours ago, Filox said:

Laugh Off does not help much, true you won't be pushed away, but you still won't gain much distance, making him able to fight turn 3+ (2 if you enemy seeks fight with him, orĀ if you bringedĀ Snowstorm to push him up). Ice Path on him with a Sudden Strike trigger would help a lot, and still it would be less oppressive then Ride the Rails and Off the Rails on Metal Golem. If those changes would be applied, his threat range would be 8" + 4" + 1" with 2 attacks or 8" + 1" with 3 attacks. Is it broken (if nothing else would change on hisĀ card), I don't know. My judgement may be clouded by Ride the Rails which I think is OP as heck ability.

Is there really a meta where Mei Feng is doing that well?Ā My impression of her was that she is pretty garbage tier, having a similar problem to Raspy in some ways with crews that seem to incidentally hard counter her with scrap removal (Schtooook!!). I wouldn't be worried about the Metal Golem of all things being oppressive either, the Ice Golem may be really immobile but at least it'll crush whatever it gets close to, whereas I struggle to hit anything important with the Metal Golem, stat 5 ;_;

While we're talking about Golem buffs, can we please see some range increases? I don't care if it requires giving all the golems a unique attack name (which I know they tried to avoid, but the attacks aren't at all similar anyway due to triggers and the stat differences) like the Fire Golem's Flaming Fist. Having a Freezing Fist that'sĀ :melee2Ā  would help with the getting in range problem a bit (and let's not talk about the travesty that is the Metal Golem using its :melee1 fist when it is holding a 2m long steel beam :P).Ā 

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43 minutes ago, Plaag said:

no, u are wrong, laugh off will make ice golem great, because he have only one problem-he is running to the enemy all game long because of pushes and places; ice golem can be in place where u need him very easy but opp just make him go away

I thought he had 2 problems, getting to the right spot and surviving. I hadn't even considered staying in the right spot as a problem, although I imagine it is also one.Ā 

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37 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Is there really a meta where Mei Feng is doing that well?Ā 

Not in mine at least.Ā  The last few times I played her, my opponents pointed out how easy it was to spot & counter my first turn (and subsequent turns, tbh), due to the set up required to get any usage out of ride the rails.Ā  The last time IĀ won a game with Mei, I declared Mei, then took nothing in keyword (except the totem)Ā and Asami as second master and summoned 3 Jorogumo over the course of the game...Ā  Felt dirty but I was super tired of losing.

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The Golem is a good model with bad counters but the Acolyte is just a bad model. I just don't get what they areĀ supposed to bring to the crew. Tools for the job is a great ability but I don't find it all that useful for the Acolyte. It's best use is to score a high card for Raspy to greedily use.Ā 

I've stopped hiring them entirely. I just don't understand their purpose.Ā 

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14 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For me it is more about claiming territory than actually dealing damage with it. If the ice golem uses the ability, it gets very hard to score (or deny) claim jump & leave your mark.

So I think it is more a zone control tool than a damage tool.

That said, it always seems a bit lacklustre when I face it, but also I have only played Molly against Rasputina, which is a terrible, terrible matchup for the December crew.

Nah, you have plenty of ways to push him or just obey him to get him out of position.

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1 hour ago, Cats Laughing said:

TBH, I miss when December models all had Frozen Heart and it was effectively Ruthless (more or less) and I feel like bringing that back could make her keyword an interesting counter pick for certain opponents.Ā  It might not help her overall game, but being a tech pick would make her interesting.

Frozen heart was pretty brutal against certain matchups in M2E. I heard it wasn't very fun for Pandora.

I'm less interested in theme wide counters and more interested in theme wide buffs.

If Frozen heart allowed friendly models to ignore ice pillars during their activation. That would not only help alleviate some of the issues of the crew, but would also be less "feels bad" against crews who mechanic relies on WP defense. Ā 

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5 hours ago, Jinn said:

Is there really a meta where Mei Feng is doing that well?Ā My impression of her was that she is pretty garbage tier, having a similar problem to Raspy in some ways with crews that seem to incidentally hard counter her with scrap removal (Schtooook!!). I wouldn't be worried about the Metal Golem of all things being oppressive either, the Ice Golem may be really immobile but at least it'll crush whatever it gets close to, whereas I struggle to hit anything important with the Metal Golem, stat 5 ;_;

While we're talking about Golem buffs, can we please see some range increases? I don't care if it requires giving all the golems a unique attack name (which I know they tried to avoid, but the attacks aren't at all similar anyway due to triggers and the stat differences) like the Fire Golem's Flaming Fist. Having a Freezing Fist that'sĀ :melee2Ā  would help with the getting in range problem a bit (and let's not talk about the travesty that is the Metal Golem using its :melee1 fist when it is holding a 2m long steel beam :P).Ā 

mei is very powerful

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1 hour ago, Jordon said:

Frozen heart was pretty brutal against certain matchups in M2E. I heard it wasn't very fun for Pandora.

Frozen Heart never actually stopped Pandora from being good, it really only stopped some of Pandora's excesses. Paralyze was a bit too good in M2E and probably a reason it doesn't exist in the game in M3E.

Ā 

The old idea of Frozen Heart being translated to Ruthless in M3E would be a good buff against terrifying and manipulative models (which are quite honestly strong against a card hungry crew without access to easy focus), but not a terribly huge one, given that Rasputina is already Ruthless herself and can spot clean individuals.

Ā 

Of course Frozen Heart having some other buff interaction with Ice Pillars could be interesting too.

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My thoughs about the December keyword from 6 months ago:
Ā 

December
The worst keyword in Arcanist and easily one of the top5 worst. First of all, it's nice that they have a thematic, fluff/lore-wise ability like Grim Feast, but again, this is not M2E, there are way less corpses and having a very situational free action that occupies 1 line of text, leaves you some space to put something else in the cards.

  • Rasputina:Ā She is one of the most resource hungry masters I've ever seen, specially taking into account that the resource generation in keyword is almost non-existent. She really likes to have focus in order to get at least a blast, and she has to discard a card to attack through ice pillars if you want to declare triggers. The Damage track is also quite unimpressive (2/3:blast/4:blast:blast). Harsh Winter is an "ok" ability if she's the leader, but the opponent will discard low cards to prevent his big beaters and key models to gain slow, just remove the Ice Pillars that are causing trouble with low cost models that have nothing better to do or even bringing someone with Demolitionist (which will completely avoid the Slow) or Blow it to Hell.
    When she's the leader, friendly December models should be able to ignore cover from Ice Pillars.
  • Wendigo:Ā Comes for free, can create Ice Pillars, can be used as an Ice Pillar for a couple of models and when it dies, creates another Ice Pillar. Also it's not insignificant, which can help sometimes.
  • Snow Storm:Ā A really decent model all rounded, but that's not good at something specific. The moving other models is nice, but paying 9ss to fix the mobility issues of the crew it's ridiculous.
  • Blessed of December:Ā A fast and expensive scheme runner that can get some serious damage. I see why it makes the cut for so many Marcus lists. I can see her(?) running with a Soulstone Cache to ensure those Pounces for extra mobility and get aĀ :+flipĀ to the attack. Probably the best model in keyword, and it performs better with another master, so nothing else to add.
  • Ice Golem:Ā Is this the worst of the Golems? Not really, I'm not even saying he's bad, but he needs some set up to make him shine, and it's quite easy to see it coming and prevent it, or just make take him completely out of the game by push/lure/obey and similar abilities. Best idea I can think of is giving him an ability that prevent him to be moved by enemy effects while being close to an Ice Pillar, it can even be a trigger in Blizzard.
  • Ice Gamin:Ā I don't see me hiring one of this in any situation. I would prefer to have 4 extra SS, put and upgrade on someone or bring a Soulstone Miner, which in turn 2 it would already be at the same cost. They should be summonable somehow (like an occasional summon).
  • Hoarcat:Ā Another scheme runner, in theory quite resilient, with almost no damage (Tundra Hunter is wasted ink on this card) and that doesn't bring any utility at all. My best idea for them is to change the Tundra Hunter ability to giveĀ them Disguised when they're close to an Ice Pillar instead of :+flipĀ to the attack and damage.
  • Ice Dancer:Ā Scheme runner with a good movement trick, but that feels is going to die to light shooting. Ice Path is good, but requires careful planning. TwoĀ :ToS-Fast:Ā Ā that require corpses. She's not bad, but at least could use some triggers. Don't Mind me is great, but you're not going to bring Raputina to matchups where you'll need it.
  • Silent One:Ā The're a reliable source of Ice Pillars outside of Rasputina, so there are a must. I don't thing they're supergood, it's more that the Keyword lacks of better options. Healing is great, and also the ability to use SS, but the attack being aĀ :ToS-Range:Ā really messes up with having Ice pillars all around.
  • December Acolyte:Ā They look decent on paper, but complicate to fit into a list, unless you're facing a crew with lots of armor/shielded. Having Tools for the Job is nice, but I wish they had more interesting triggers. They could get Concealment of Stealth while being close to an Ice Pillar, which would help with their Df/Wp5. They have to ignore at least Cover in order to be a decent choice. It could even be aĀ :ToS-Fast:Ā to "camouflage" themselves while being within 2" of an Ice Pillar (ideally with a Surge trigger).

Part of the problem is maybeĀ that some of the models (Ice Dancers, Hoarcat and Ice Gamin) are bad due to try to make them more balance for the other masters that can field them (Colette, Marcus, Sandeep).

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1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

My thoughs about the December keyword from 6 months ago:
Ā 

December
The worst keyword in Arcanist and easily one of the top5 worst. First of all, it's nice that they have a thematic, fluff/lore-wise ability like Grim Feast, but again, this is not M2E, there are way less corpses and having a very situational free action that occupies 1 line of text, leaves you some space to put something else in the cards.

  • Rasputina:Ā She is one of the most resource hungry masters I've ever seen, specially taking into account that the resource generation in keyword is almost non-existent. She really likes to have focus in order to get at least a blast, and she has to discard a card to attack through ice pillars if you want to declare triggers. The Damage track is also quite unimpressive (2/3:blast/4:blast:blast). Harsh Winter is an "ok" ability if she's the leader, but the opponent will discard low cards to prevent his big beaters and key models to gain slow, just remove the Ice Pillars that are causing trouble with low cost models that have nothing better to do or even bringing someone with Demolitionist (which will completely avoid the Slow) or Blow it to Hell.
    When she's the leader, friendly December models should be able to ignore cover from Ice Pillars.
  • Wendigo:Ā Comes for free, can create Ice Pillars, can be used as an Ice Pillar for a couple of models and when it dies, creates another Ice Pillar. Also it's not insignificant, which can help sometimes.
  • Snow Storm:Ā A really decent model all rounded, but that's not good at something specific. The moving other models is nice, but paying 9ss to fix the mobility issues of the crew it's ridiculous.
  • Blessed of December:Ā A fast and expensive scheme runner that can get some serious damage. I see why it makes the cut for so many Marcus lists. I can see her(?) running with a Soulstone Cache to ensure those Pounces for extra mobility and get aĀ :+flipĀ to the attack. Probably the best model in keyword, and it performs better with another master, so nothing else to add.
  • Ice Golem:Ā Is this the worst of the Golems? Not really, I'm not even saying he's bad, but he needs some set up to make him shine, and it's quite easy to see it coming and prevent it, or just make take him completely out of the game by push/lure/obey and similar abilities. Best idea I can think of is giving him an ability that prevent him to be moved by enemy effects while being close to an Ice Pillar, it can even be a trigger in Blizzard.
  • Ice Gamin:Ā I don't see me hiring one of this in any situation. I would prefer to have 4 extra SS, put and upgrade on someone or bring a Soulstone Miner, which in turn 2 it would already be at the same cost. They should be summonable somehow (like an occasional summon).
  • Hoarcat:Ā Another scheme runner, in theory quite resilient, with almost no damage (Tundra Hunter is wasted ink on this card) and that doesn't bring any utility at all. My best idea for them is to change the Tundra Hunter ability to giveĀ them Disguised when they're close to an Ice Pillar instead of :+flipĀ to the attack and damage.
  • Ice Dancer:Ā Scheme runner with a good movement trick, but that feels is going to die to light shooting. Ice Path is good, but requires careful planning. TwoĀ :ToS-Fast:Ā Ā that require corpses. She's not bad, but at least could use some triggers. Don't Mind me is great, but you're not going to bring Raputina to matchups where you'll need it.
  • Silent One:Ā The're a reliable source of Ice Pillars outside of Rasputina, so there are a must. I don't thing they're supergood, it's more that the Keyword lacks of better options. Healing is great, and also the ability to use SS, but the attack being aĀ :ToS-Range:Ā really messes up with having Ice pillars all around.
  • December Acolyte:Ā They look decent on paper, but complicate to fit into a list, unless you're facing a crew with lots of armor/shielded. Having Tools for the Job is nice, but I wish they had more interesting triggers. They could get Concealment of Stealth while being close to an Ice Pillar, which would help with their Df/Wp5. They have to ignore at least Cover in order to be a decent choice. It could even be aĀ :ToS-Fast:Ā to "camouflage" themselves while being within 2" of an Ice Pillar (ideally with a Surge trigger).

Part of the problem is maybeĀ that some of the models (Ice Dancers, Hoarcat and Ice Gamin) are bad due to try to make them more balance for the other masters that can field them (Colette, Marcus, Sandeep).

cover and concealment are the problem in rasputina; without focus stacking it is very hard to do smthng, but only envy gives focus in arcanists; maybe some models in keyword need to have trigger blasphemers ritual or analog with pillar to give focuses to nearby ally

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On 1/16/2021 at 8:15 AM, Mycellanious said:

Mkay I know this is the wrong thread, but those are fightin words. I think some things could use a buff, but if no one is winning with Mei then your meta isnt playing her right

Oh, I've won with her, just not against anything in the upper tiers of Masters (except against Parker Barrows once when I brought a full burning thunders list and my opponent run and gunned Parker too far up on turn one. Parker got cooked).

I'm just saying she isn't anywhere close to "OP as heck". She is close to middle of the packĀ generally, with a bunch of unfun models I don't want to hireĀ but need to for setting up the railway. Middle of the pack happens to put her in the bottom two masters of Arcanists (above Raspy) and Thunders (above Youko), because they have a lot of pretty good masters.

I can see the potential in Ride the Rails and how it could be great for scheming, but on the other hand I've never even seen her place in a tournament and there are plenty of crews with better movement without the counters. Is she competitive somewhere?

She just seems to have a bunch of (hardish) counters that are entirely unnecessary for an entirely average power Master. There is no real balance reason that Vent Steam should ignore enemy Constructs, and her scrap is just so vulnerable to crews like Transmortis or models like Ashes and Dust who will just come in and blow her away.

I wish Gibson DeWalt had shared some of his Antiluminal Bridge tech with Mei, that would be a much more fun version of that ability. (Gibson's ability allows models that end a move in base contact with one marker to be placed into base contact with another in range, allowing for cool things like charging through the markers.)

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Just played a game with Kaeris last night. I find her interesting when compared to Raspy as both are ranged masters (Kaeris being more mid-range) that require additional resources.

While by no means perfect, I do find Kaeris more complex but easier to use if that makes sense. I find Raspy needs her keyword modelsĀ to support her while Kaeris is the opposite and has to support her own keyword models.Ā 

Obviously Raspy has much more board threat than Kaeris, but Kaeris mobility and AP efficiency does close that gap somewhat. In terms of effectivenessĀ however, there seems no doubt in my mind that Kaeris does it so much better.Ā 

With a free action, Kaeris can setup a Pyre, use run and gun into that marker (for +2 burning) and from that point, take attacks at a positive that ignore friendly fire, with a built in min 3 damage (or add a blast + pyre marker to tag multiple enemies and setup herself/crew up with additional Pyre markers). There is just so much efficiency and all you really need is one pyre marker.Ā 

Conversely to reach similar effectiveness with Raspy you'd need spend an action getting a pillar, spend cards to trigger onslaught and still need to flip way more cards to hit (without positives) in order to do what Kaeris does.Ā Ā It just feels like so many more hoops to jump through. I will admit that Raspy has a higher chance to spike but honestly the amount of cards needed to do so makes it unrealistic at best.Ā 

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