Fiendish Gamble and Betrayal

[Vaylos]

Was running the Dreamer and had a question about Stitched Togethers and Mr. Tannen. 

 

How does Fiendish Gamble work against Betrayal? 

 

 

Thanks!

[Regelridderen]

You Gamble ‘instead’ of cheat’ing, so I’d say you won’t need to discard. 

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

You Gamble ‘instead’ of cheat’ing, so I’d say you won’t need to discard. 

The contention comes from Fiendish Gamble says "when you would cheat", so the argument is that if you don't discard you never get the option to cheat. Also if Fiendish Gamble completely ignores any restrictions on cheating, then it can be used while on a negative or when you flip the black joker/your opponent flips the red, which I think we can all agree was certainly not the intention, and that that's an unneeded strength for Stitched.

[Vaylos]

22 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The contention comes from Fiendish Gamble says "when you would cheat", so the argument is that if you don't discard you never get the option to cheat. Also if Fiendish Gamble completely ignores any restrictions on cheating, then it can be used while on a negative or when you flip the black joker/your opponent flips the red, which I think we can all agree was certainly not the intention, and that that's an unneeded strength for Stitched.

 

Thd wording on it is super specific. You can either cheat or use Fiendish Gamble instead. 

 

I'm not asking if you can do both, I'm asking if you need to discard a card to use Fiendish Gamble while a model has Betrayal near it. 

 

There's sublevels of how that's handled with timing and if a model says "You can't cheat" can you still Fiendish Gamble. 

 

What I'd like to know is how that's resolved. If it's a replacement effect or if it's counted as cheating since it takes place on the same timing and states "When this model would Cheat Fate".

Is it a full replacement effect or a sub category of Cheating Fate?

Does that make sense? 

[Pergli]

My thought would be:

"When this model would cheat fate, it may instead..."

A. They have to choose to cheat but instead of cheating, they do fiendish gamble instead. This would mean if they were on negatives, they could not choose to cheat therefore they can't use Fiendish Gamble.

B. I don't think Betrayal would affect this though (unfortunately) because you are not cheating fate and don't decide to cheat fate. "Instead choose a card". It is replacing the cheat ability with a fiendish gamble action which betrayal does not affect since its not cheating. 

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Vaylos said:

 

Thd wording on it is super specific. You can either cheat or use Fiendish Gamble instead. 

 

I'm not asking if you can do both, I'm asking if you need to discard a card to use Fiendish Gamble while a model has Betrayal near it. 

 

There's sublevels of how that's handled with timing and if a model says "You can't cheat" can you still Fiendish Gamble. 

 

What I'd like to know is how that's resolved. If it's a replacement effect or if it's counted as cheating since it takes place on the same timing and states "When this model would Cheat Fate".

Is it a full replacement effect or a sub category of Cheating Fate?

Does that make sense? 

It replaces cheating, no effect that would happen on the event of a model cheating fate would happen when a Stitched uses Fiendish Gamble. However, you only have the ability to use Fiendish Gamble when you have the opportunity to cheat fate, so things that prevent you from cheating fate also prevent you from using Fiendish Gamble.

53 minutes ago, Pergli said:

My thought would be:

"When this model would cheat fate, it may instead..."

A. They have to choose to cheat but instead of cheating, they do fiendish gamble instead. This would mean if they were on negatives, they could not choose to cheat therefore they can't use Fiendish Gamble.

B. I don't think Betrayal would affect this though (unfortunately) because you are not cheating fate and don't decide to cheat fate. "Instead choose a card". It is replacing the cheat ability with a fiendish gamble action which betrayal does not affect since its not cheating. 

Since it says when the model would cheat fate, you don't have the choice to use fiendish gamble unless you are able to cheat fate. You can't cheat fate until you discard a card if you're in Betrayal range, if you can't cheat fate, you can't use Fiendish Gamble.

[Pergli]

Just now, santaclaws01 said:

It replaces cheating, no effect that would happen on the event of a model cheating fate would happen when a Stitched uses Fiendish Gamble. However, you only have the ability to use Fiendish Gamble when you have the opportunity to cheat fate, so things that prevent you from cheating fate also prevent you from using Fiendish Gamble.

Since it says when the model would cheat fate, you don't have the choice to use fiendish gamble unless you are able to cheat fate. You can't cheat fate until you discard a card if you're in Betrayal range, if you can't cheat fate, you can't use Fiendish Gamble.

I agree with this. You have to be able to cheat fate and to get the option, you have to pitch the card. Then you can change your cheat fate to fiendish betrayal instead. 

[Regelridderen]

I disagree with @Pergli @santaclaws01

Betrayal reads : “Enemy models with 6” must discard a card to cheat fate”.

And cheating reads “After flipping a card, a player has the opportunity to Cheat Fate by replacing the card they flipped into the Conflict with a card from their hand.”

So ‘cheating’ is defined as replacing a duel card, while Betrayal simply adds a cost to doing so, but Fiendish Gamble is a completely separate thing. 

[solkan]

6 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Fiendish Gamble is a completely separate thing. 

Fiendish Gamble is a “completely different thing” that you do “when you would cheat fate”.

”when you would ....” is one of the ways the rules authors describe effects that interrupt or replace something that the models does.  Compare Deep Discovery, which is has the same “When this model would Cheat Fate” timing clause and the replacement effect is to Cheat from a discard pile.

 

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

Fiendish Gamble is a “completely different thing” that you do “when you would cheat fate”.

”when you would ....” is one of the ways the rules authors describe effects that interrupt or replace something that the models does.  Compare Deep Discovery, which is has the same “When this model would Cheat Fate” timing clause and the replacement effect is to Cheat from a discard pile.

 

Exactly, Deep Discovery allows you to ‘cheat fate’ just as Bayou Two Card allows you to cheat from your deck, these actions are both ‘cheat fate’ but just changes the source of the card. Where as Fiendish Gamble allows you to ‘place the card into the conflict’, no ‘cheat’-ing involved.

[Jinn]

On 12/29/2020 at 2:53 AM, Regelridderen said:

Exactly, Deep Discovery allows you to ‘cheat fate’ just as Bayou Two Card allows you to cheat from your deck, these actions are both ‘cheat fate’ but just changes the source of the card. Where as Fiendish Gamble allows you to ‘place the card into the conflict’, no ‘cheat’-ing involved.

"When this model would Cheat Fate" means you have to have an opportunity to cheat fate in the first place. Betrayal means you cannot cheat fate unless you discard a card first.

Consider another ability, "Tell No Lies" on False Witnesses that causes models within 3 to be unable to cheat fate at all. Do you think Stitched can Fiendish Gamble in that aura?